RUSSIA AND OUR LADY

[secretman]

HI EVERYONE!
This is going to be the hottest topic in this forum. Why? let's see! Here are the words of Our Lady of Fatima on Jul-13-1917:

"I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world. In Portugal the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved etc "

1-If the consecration was done March-25-1984, why aren't we seeing the convertion of RUSSIA?

2-Where is the  period of peace granted by Our Lady after the Russia consecration?


here starts this topic!

God bless U all!

[Seeker]

Hi Secretman,

Here's my $0.02 (as Tina would say).

1. Sister Lucia herself said it was up to the Church to interpret the message of Fatima that she gave us from the Blessed Mother so I have to trust that being guided by the Holy Spirit, they got it right.  However, I also understand that the Pope and the Magesterium are only infallible in matters of faith and only when speaking specifically with that authority.

2.  Whether Russia is really consecrated or not, or whether we are in a period of peace or not, the message remains the same.  Mary has called us to repentance, conversion, sacrifice, and holiness.  My personal actions shouldn't be any different whether Russia is really consecrated or not.

3.  The fulfillment of the promises of the Blessed Virgin may not be what we expect.  We usually intepret peace to mean a lack of war.  But in a world where millions of abortions are performed, is this real peace?  The peace she spoke of may be something other than what we humans expect.  

4.  The conversion is taking place even as we speak.  Though it does suffer setbacks now and then.  I don't know if she ever said how long the conversion of Russia would take.  Just that in the end, her Immaculate Heart would triumph.

Just my humble opinion.  I've seen some imply that there is a conspiracy at the highest levels of the Vatican to hide the real message of Fatima.  My feeling is that even if that were true, that the Immaculate Heart of Mary will triumph anyway.  Personally, I see her triumph happening already within the Church.  I see a renewal of the Church.  My faith is only strengthened by the recent "crop" of priests and converts who are strong in their faith and are not afraid to witness to the truth.  To me, this is a direct result of Mary's intercession with Christ and the many prayers of those devoted to the Rosary.  Some of this has to do with changes made by Pope John Paul II, who is a great devotee of Mary himself.

[Seeker]

Secretman (and everyone else),

What are your thoughts on some of the Fatima-based apostolates like Fr Gruner's Fatima Network?

Have you seen the controversy about an alleged interfaith shrine at Fatima as well as whether Russia was really consecrated or not?

Here's an article at the Fatima Network concerning the alleged interfaith shrine and interfaith dialogue at Fatima.

On the other hand, here is an article at Catholic Light  and at Catholic News that says there will not be an interfaith shrine at Fatima according to Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald, President of the Pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue.

Here's one more Fatima-based apostolate known as the Blue Army which seems to be less controversial.

[tklein1014]

I've seen some imply that there is a conspiracy at the highest levels of the Vatican to hide the real message of Fatima. My feeling is that even if that were true, that the Immaculate Heart of Mary will triumph anyway.

This is basically my view, also.  No matter what we do here on earth, His will be done, one way or another.  We never know for sure what His will is, so just put it in God's hands, and things will be ok in the end.

Tina

[secretman]

Hi everyone!
“the message remains the same. Mary has called us to repentance, conversion, sacrifice, and holiness.”. Sure !, that’s true but Mary at Fatima not only has called us to those things. Let’s note that She clearly said: “If My Requests are heeded” Are Her requests just a called to all those things mentioned before? Our Lady Clearly included “The consecration of Russia to My Immaculate heart, and the communion of reparation on the firsts Saturdays”.
Our Lady visited Sr. Lucy in the evening of the Thursday Dec-10-1925 to ask “the communion of reparation on the firsts Saturdays”. And later on Jun-13-1929 Our Lady visited Sr. Lucy when she was in Tuy and requested her the consecration of Russia in these words: “ the moment has come when God asks the Holy Father to make, in union with all the bishops of the world, the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, promising to save it by this means. So numerous are the souls wich the justice of God condemns for the sins committed against Me. That I come to ask you for reparation. Sacrifice yourself for this intention and pray”.

Could the act of consecration requested by Our Lady (remember that’s part of the Fatima Message) be ignored? Shouldn’t my personal actions be any different whether Russia is really consecrated or not? No matter what we do here on earth, God’s  Will be done one way or another? First of all we must always be aware that God always works in ordinary ways; so if God wants that act of consecration to be make by “the Holy Father, in union with all the bishops of the world”, could we simply ignore that desire? No! Our Lady clearly said what would happen if Her requests were not heeded: “She (Russia) will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church (the Church are all of us!). The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated”. No matter what, God’s Will be done? Why does not God convert Russia without that consecration? Sister Lucy wrote to her confessor Fr. Gonçalves on 1936: “ I have spoken with Our Lord about the subject, and not too long ago I asked Him why He would not convert Russia without the Holy Father making that consecration. Jesus answered, because I want My whole Church to acknowledge that consecration as a triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary so that it may extend its cult later on and put the devotion to this Immaculate Heart beside the devotion to My Sacred heart”. Later on Our Lord said to Sr. Lucy: “the Holy Father! Pray very much for the Holy father. He will do it [the consecration] but it will be late.” So, it is necessary that (formal and external) act of consecration of Russia.

The conversion is taken place even as we speak? Please let me say this: Russia is not converting but perverting. If you have read the papers since 1989 (the year of the perestroika, and the wall of Berlin) they points out that what is going on in Russia  is a further perversion of the morals of the Russian people, and also in Poland, Hungary and so forth. The countries that the news tell us have been liberated from communist control have in fact fallen into a worse state. Their morals are under greater attack with the increased importation of western ways of life: Playboy magazines, pornography (above all, child pornography), sex shops and like, distribution of drugs and weapons, not to mention the mafia including contract killings  via e-mail. What we have in Russia today is a Russian society with a new law on “freedom of conscience” wich gave privileged status to Russian Orthodoxy, Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism as Russia’s “traditional religions”, while requiring Catholic parishes to obtain approval from local bureaucrats for their existence. Is a Russian “western” society with “freedom of conscience” the same as “ a converted Russia”? Does not “conversion mean: conversion to God and to His church, outside of wich there is no salvation, that’s to say the Holy Catholic Church?

“we usually interpret peace to mean lack of war”? At the Catechism of the Catholic Church number 2304  we can read : “Respect for and development of human life require peace. Peace is not merely the absence of war, and it is not limited to maintaining a balance of powers between adversaries. Peace cannot be attained on earth without safeguarding the goods of persons, free communication among men, respect for the dignity of persons and peoples, and the assiduous practice of fraternity. Peace is "the tranquillity of order." Peace is the work of justice and the effect of charity.”
But let’s take Augustine definition of peace, “the tranquillity of order." (S. Augustine. De Civitate Dei  19,13) and confront it with the current state of the world. Every year, 50 million innocent babies die in the wombs of their mothers, and abortion still goes on around the world, particularly in Russia where it is estimated that a woman of childbearing age has an average of 12 abortions in her lifetime. At this moment there have been 30 wars since Mar-25-1984 (the year of the entrustment of the world) in those wars 10 million victims have died. Are we aware of the terrorist acts in NY and Madrid? What about the plight of the Palestinians in the Holy Land dying daily in acts of war? We can hardly say mankind is enjoying a period of peace nor even some sort of “tranquillity of order”

God bless You all!

[Seeker]

Hi Secretman,

I can tell you have a tender devotion to Our Lady.  I hope you don't take any of what I have said or will say as trying to downplay or brush off the Message of Fatima.  The Miracle at Fatima and the message imparted to Sister Lucy concerns all of us today, and it is necessary to heed if we are to do God's will.

I'd just like to offer a few more comments.

First of all we must always be aware that God always works in ordinary ways; so if God wants that act of consecration to be make by “the Holy Father, in union with all the bishops of the world”, could we simply ignore that desire? No!

I AGREE 100%.  I think that many people forget this important point you make and sometimes we forget it in our longing for God to always work in extraordinary ways.

Our Lady clearly said what would happen if Her requests were not heeded: “She (Russia) will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church (the Church are all of us!). The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated”.

In fact, a lot of this has already occurred.  If you look at Africa, you could make the case that it is still occurring.

I agree with your comments on “peace.”  I personally don’t see “peace” without the end to the war our world makes on the most innocent, the unborn and children.

With regards to the consecration of Russia or whether consecrating the world in 1984 includes Russia and answers Our Lady’s request, I have to defer to the Pope and bishops.  Our Lady has entrusted that task to them.  As a layperson, I see my part in the message of Fatima as continuing to pray, sacrifice, and strive for holiness.  As part of that, I can remain devoted to the Immaculate and Sacred Hearts and perform the communion of reparation on first Saturdays.  

I totally agree that there is a lot of immorality in Russia and that the conversion does not appear to be moving forward.  I might have put too much of a positive spin on it in my previous post.  I pray for the Russian people.  I also see much immorality all over the world.  I believe that Russia will eventually be converted and that God will work through the efforts of human beings to make it happen. But conversion is about souls and it is hard to place a measurement on how God is changing souls in Russia.  A decrease in abortions could be one indicator, I think.  The message of Fatima did not say how long the conversion of Russia would take or that it would be easy.  

I guess the point I’m trying to make is that we should not lose faith if we do not see the signs that we expect to see that the promises of Fatima have been fulfilled, are being fulfilled, or will be fulfilled.  I say this for my own benefit, because I believe if truly trust in God, then if prophecies do not occur the way I expect them to occur, I will not lose hope.  God does not work according to my expectations.  

I think the Book of Revelation is very appropriate here.  In the book, all kinds of catastrophes occur as a sign of God’s coming judgment, yet the evil still do not repent.  Throughout, God’s people are called to remain steadfast and persevere in faith, hope, and love.   I pray that I can do the same, whether the judgment comes in my lifetime or not.

God bless you!  Thanks for bringing up such an important topic.  

[Melody]

While I do not have anything constructive of my own to add to this indeed very controversial topic, I do suggest reading this article written by Gregorius D. Hesse titled "The Conditions for the Consecration of Russia"

[Seeker]

Thanks for that link Melody.  Very interesting and informative.