John 21:15... very technical Greek question

[DavidFilmer]

ARRGH! My computer has been down for A MONTH! I had to completely reload everything (after determining I had a very obscure problem with my system's RAM). And I'm a "guru" with computers. Lemme tell ya, when the guru's machine goes down for a MONTH, it's pretty bad.

Anyway, while on the topic of very obscure problems...

Here's a very obscure Greek question... I’m not sure if anyone has the knowledge or resources to answer this…

I was looking at the Great Commission. No, not one at the end of Matthew, but the OTHER one at the end of John. Where Jesus appoints Peter to shepherd his flock. John 21:15-19.

I have a Hendrickson Interlinear Bible (protestant KJV), which I use in my Bible studies. This often comes in handy when doing word studies, since I don’t know Greek.

The Interlinear Bible presents the Greek text, and below it the literal English translation (according to the translator, a certain Jay P. Green), and above that is the Strong’s number which you can use to find the word in a Strong’s lexicon.  Literal Greek translations read “funny” in English, since Greek word order and usage is different, and sometimes one Greek word might translate into several English words and vice-versa, so along the left margin is a more ordinary English translation.

But my interest is in Mr. Green’s interlinear literal translation which accompanies the Greek text. It reads:

Simon of Jonah, do you love Me more (than) these? He says to Him, Yes, Lord, You know that I love You. He says to him, Feed the lambs of me. He says to him again, secondly, Simon of Jonah, do you love Me? He says to Him, Yes, Lord, You know that I love You. He says to him, Shepherd the sheep of Me. He says to him thirdly, Simon of Jonah, do you love Me? Was grieved Peter that He said to him thirdly, Do you love Me? And he said to him, Lord, You all things perceive, You know that I love You. Says to him Jesus, Feed the little sheep of Me.

OK, I’m looking at the translation, and I’m looking at the little squiggles that denote Greek words, and I cannot figure out why Mr. Green translates that last passage the way he does. He adds the word “little” to describe the sheep in the final affirmation. I'm confused about why he did that.  Here's why:

In the second affirmation, Jesus says, “Shepherd the sheep of Me.” The word “sheep” is Strongs’ #4263 (which does, according to Strong’s, mean “sheep”). In the third affirmation, the phrase “little sheep” is directly beneath the same Greek word (#4263) which was previously translated simply as “sheep.” There is no separate Greek word for “little” – Green seems to be saying that “little” is suggested by the form or ending or context of the wording, yet the squiggles look identical in form and ending to the usage in the second affirmation.

Does anyone know why Mr. Green choose to translate the subject of the third affirmation as “little sheep” when he did not do so in the second affirmation?

FWIW, in the “more ordinary” translation in the left margin, Mr. Green did not include the word “little.” Only in the interlinear literal translation.

A reading of a regular English translation shows that Jesus says "lambs" once and "sheep" twice. I would find it interesting if there was actually a subtle difference in the two usages of "sheep," as suggested by Mr. Green's interlinear translation. Can anyone tell me if such a differentiation is supported by the Greek text?

[Seeker]

David,

You got me. you may want to check this online interlinear Greek of John 21 and see if you can find any differentiations.  I looked, but couldn't find any.  It has varying versions of the Greek as well as varying English translations.

[Rev. Eric]

First of all, my personal proficiency in New Testament Greek is still "under construction", meaning that although I studied it a few years ago, I will need to dedicate a lot of time in the future to really get to know this language, as I fully intend to do.  Nevertheless, I stopped on of the seminary's Greek experts and asked about this whole "sheep" / "little sheep" business.

He said that "lamb" and "sheep" are two separate words in New Testament Greek, just as they are in English.  Furthermore, the Greek word for "lamb" can also be translated as "little sheep" because the word designates a young sheep as opposed to a full-grown one.

Based on Green's translation, the Greek word for lambs should appear in verses 15 and 17 (being translated first as "lambs" and then as "little sheep")  and the word for sheep should appear in verse 16.  If this is not the case then either I messed up my brief investigation into the matter (which admitedly was done "on the fly" as I am embroiled with upcoming final exams), or Green used a little artistic license with his translation.

Based on the commentaries I read involving John 21, scholars do not see any real significance as to why John used two different words for sheep.  The reference, whether to lambs, sheep, or little sheep, is to be for all the people of the earth.  Note that just before this happens, Peter and the others miraculously catch a net full of exactly 153 fish.

The number of fish hauled ashore is symbolic.  St. Jerome claims that Greek zoologists had identified 153 different kinds of fish (Comm. in Ez. 14, 47).  If this is the background, the episode anticipates how the apostles, made fishers of men by Christ (Mt 4:19), will gather believers from every nation into the Church (Mt 28:18-20).

- Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch, Ignatius Catholic Study Bible: The Gospel of John(San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2003), 56.

Therefore, if the fish represent people of all nations, then the flock that Jesus refers to when speaking to Peter (right after the fish are caught) would, logically, refer to the same.  In other words, the episode of the fish sets the stage for the discussion on the lambs/sheep.  In light of this, we may say that the reason why John used two different words for sheep was simply to avoid redundancy.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[DavidFilmer]

Thanks for the reply, RevEric.

To clarify, the text (in both English and Greek) uses "sheep" twice and "lamb" once. But Green, for some reason, chose to add the word "little" to one of the instances of the word "sheep" (he was not translating the Greek word "lamb" as "little sheep" - he was translating "sheep" as "little sheep," but only in one instance (the other instance of sheep, he did not add "little," even though both Greek squiggles are the same)).

Why did Jesus use both terms, "sheep" and "lamb"? It may have been to avoid redundancy, as RevEric suggests. But my wife heard it said that the distinction was that Peter was to be both shepherd of the laity (ie, the lambs) as well as the clergy (ie, adult sheep). This sounds like a plausable and interesting interpretation, so I did my little word study. If this interpretation is to be believed, then Jesus' emphasis on "sheep" prehaps suggests that Peter is to be more concerned with guiding the clergy ("strenghten your brothers") than the laity at large, since Jesus specified "sheep" more than "lambs."

Yet, Green threw that "little" curve into his literal translation. This lamb/sheep interpretation works either way, so it doesn't really matter as far as this question goes, but I was interested in Green's reasons for translating the text the way he did, and wondered if the context around this second occurance of "sheep" somehow justified adding the word "little."

[Seeker]

David,

As near as I can figure, the context seems to be the difference between "feed" and "tend."  Maybe in Aramaic or Greek there is a context for "feeding lambs (little sheep)" and "tending sheep."  

Jesus first says to "feed my lambs."  Than it's translated as "tend my sheep."  And finally, "feed my sheep."  Maybe Green saw a reason to attach "little sheep" to the word "feed" like it was in the earlier verse for "lambs."
 

[Seeker]

Blue Letter Bible's Strong's Concordance Thayer's Lexicon - Greek BOSKO

David,

Here is a link that helps explain the usage of the two words translated as "feed" and "tend".  From what I can gather, the two words are "bosko" (not the chocolate syrup ) and "poimaino".  "Bosko" is used in verses 15 and 17 and usually denotes nourishment.  "Poimaino" is used in 16 and usually denotes oversight.  Thayer's Lexicon describes "bosko" as the narrower term and "poimano" as the wider term.

"Bosko" can be translated as "to feed, tend."  "Poimaino" can be translated as "to shepherd, take care of sheep, to rule, to lead," and has also been translated in KJV as "to feed."  

Maybe in the context, "bosko" more appropriately describes what one would do for "lambs/little sheep" instead of "adult sheep."

I now see the passage as Christ maybe asking Peter (the pope) to nourish his lambs (the laity) in 15 and sheep (priests and bishops) in 17.  Maybe this refers to the Eucharist as well as faith and morals.  I see it also as Christ asking Peter (the pope) to oversee, or lead, the other Apostles (and thus other bishops) as the "sheep" in 16.  Just my 2 cents worth.

Thanks for asking the question, this whole exercise gives me a greater appreciation for what Christ was really saying to Peter.  Understanding the context of the Greek makes it more meaningful for me as I see it applied in the Church today.

I wonder how anyone can ever trust that English translations tell the whole story anymore.  

Guess that's why we need the Church to maintain the context of the whole message in Scripture.

[Seeker]

One more thought.

Maybe, in the context of a flock, the shepherd needs to make sure the lambs are fed, while he just needs to lead the sheep to pasture, defend them from predators, and they will feed themselves.

Thus, the difference between "feeding lambs/little sheep" and "tending sheep."  Maybe this is what Green was thinking of in his translation.

Just a thought.

[Melody]

Whoa! Couldn't possible add anything to this conversation, because, well, most of it is all Greek to me [sorry, that was waay too tempting!]

Still, I managed to grasp something from all of this & as usual it made interesting food for thought.

Am also now very impressed with you three guys! Keep it up, may your thirst for the truth always lead you closer to Him who is Truth

Blessings,

Melody