Understanding Roman Catholicism by Rick Jones

[Melody]

Further to our little decision to dissect this misleading book "Understanding Roman Catholicism" by Rick Jones; There are totally 7 chapters will deal with our Blessed Virgin Mother in this book viz:

15 Mary Saves
16 Mary: Saved from Birth
17 Mary: Perpetual Virgin
18 Mary: Source of Holiness
19 Mary: The Intercessor
20 Mary: Recipient of Prayers
21 Mary: Queen Over All Things

I though we could start with the first one (it seems almost TOO easy to tear this one apart, even by reading the title!), but let's do a serious dissection anyway.

The link is http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160cont.asp

and the matter reads as under:

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Mary Saves
Does Mary, the mother of Jesus, play a role in the salvation of mankind?:

"Taken up to heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..." Pg. 252, #969
"Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Pg. 125, #494
 

Is this doctrine scriptural? According to God's Word, Mary has never had anything to do with the salvation process. Scripture reveals that Jesus is the ONLY One who can provide salvation:

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12  

Jesus Himself declared that He is the ONLY way to heaven:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6
"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved... " John 10:9
 

Still the Catechism insists:

"She (Mary) is inseparably linked with the saving work of her Son." Pg. 303, #1172  

Once again, it comes down to who you will believe, the Bible or church tradition. The Bible is unmistakably clear:

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11
"Yet I am the LORD thy God... there is no saviour beside me." Hosea 13:4

"The God of my rock he is... my saviour..." 2 Samuel 22:3
 

Before Jesus was born, an angel announced that He would be the Savior:

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21  

After Jesus' birth, the angel repeated himself:

"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." Luke 2:11  

Over and over, we read that Jesus is the Savior:

"... we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world." John 4:42
"Him (Jesus) hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour..." Acts 5:31

"Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:" Acts 13:23

"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ..." 2 Timothy 1:10

"Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour." Titus 1:4

"Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;" Titus 3:6

"... the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world." 1 John 4:14
 

Look at the words of Peter, recognized as Catholicism's first pope:

"... through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" 2 Peter 1:1
"... into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 1:11

"... through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..." 2 Peter 2:20
 

Certainly, Peter knew that Jesus, not Mary, was the Savior. Peter glorified Jesus as the Savior, not Mary:

"But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen." 2 Peter 3:18  

This same Peter declares that:

"... ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" 1 Peter 1:18-19

Without question, Jesus is the Savior, not Mary.

Conclusion

The facts of this chapter leave several questions needing answers:

Why does the Catholic church want people looking to Mary instead of Jesus for salvation?
Why is glory stolen from Jesus and given to Mary?
If Mary plays a role in salvation, why didn' t God tell us so in His Word?
Most importantly, who will you trust to save you? The Mary of church tradition, or the Jesus of God' s Word?
"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:" Philippians 3:2

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[tklein1014]

This one is pretty easy...

The way I see it, without Mary & her willingness to accept God's plan & will for her, Jesus would not have been born in that stable in Bethlehem, and then God knows what would have happened.  I think Catholocism understands this & takes it into account.  I don't think anyone is suggesting that Mary replaces Jesus as Savior.  I think it is a continuing underlying problem, which seems to be consistant throughout all of these chapters that we've rebutted, that the author doesn't understand our belief in Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist.  Otherwise it would be clear to him that we focus most of our attention towards Jesus every day (except Good Friday) at every Mass at every church all over the world.  He just doesn't get it, and that seems to be the underlying problem with all these mistruths he's written about Catholocism.

Tina

[Rev. Eric]

Hello Melody,

You're right, this one is too easy.  Jones has read what the Church says about Mary's participation in God's plan of salvation and has interpreted that in a way to accuse Catholics of believing that Mary provides salvation to humankind.

Jones stated:

The facts of this chapter leave several questions needing answers

And so I will now honor his request and provide those answers.

Why does the Catholic church want people looking to Mary instead of Jesus for salvation?

Catholics do not look to Mary for salvation.  Jones quotes portions from the Catechism to distort it.  For example, he quotes the Catechism's (#494) quotation from St. Iranaeus: "Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."   Because this quote is left standing alone, it can be seen to suggest that Mary provided her own salvation as well as salvation for others.  Indeed, that is exactly what Jones wants his readers to think.  But before Jones read that in #494 of the Catechism, it seems reasonable to assume that he also read # 491, which is part of the same section.  In #491, the Catechism clearly states that Mary's salvation (in terms of her Immaculate Conception) was made possible "by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race".

This, of course, clearly contradicts Jones' erroneous interpretation of #494.  After all, how can the Church be teaching that Mary provided her own salvation and salvation for others if the Catechism clearly states that her savior and the savior of the human race is Christ?  In light of this, what are we to make of Jones?  Did he write his book without bothering to read #491?  If so, then he was willing to criticize Catholic beliefs without taking the time to sufficiently research what those beliefs are (in other words, he read only a portion of that section of the Catechism and drew his own conclusions without bothering to read the rest of what is a very short section).

Or, did Jones read #491 and purposely refuse to acknowledge it?  Instead he launched his own interpretation knowing full well that it would mislead his readers concerning what Catholics actually believe.  Either way you try to explain it, Jones' methods are far from commendable.  Either his research methods are sloppy and inconsiderate, or he is someone engaged in dishonest Catholic bashing.  The same could be applied to all the many other instances in which he distorts the Catechism, as have been demonstrated elsewhere in this forum.

But let us move on.  All proper Marian devotion is "Christocentric", meaning that it points toward Christ, and is to lead us to a deeper devotion to Christ.  Mary's role in humbly obeying the will of God serves as a model for Christianity, which is why we meditate upon it.

Why is glory stolen from Jesus and given to Mary?

No glory is stolen from Jesus, as a honest reading of the Catechism would demonstrate.  Any honor given to Mary is honor given to Christ, because what we honor is the power of Christ working in her.  The same is said of the honor we give to saints.

If Mary plays a role in salvation, why didn' t God tell us so in His Word?

He did.  Or perhaps Jones is not familiar with Gen 3:15, Is 7:14, Lk 1:26-38 and Rev 12:1-17.  How can anyone say that this is not playing a role in God's plan of salvation?

Most importantly, who will you trust to save you? The Mary of church tradition, or the Jesus of God' s Word?

First of all, Church tradition is revelation from God, as I have demonstrated elsewhere in this forum.  But to answer Jones' question, Catholics trust Jesus to save them.  To say that we are saved by Mary or any other creature would be heresy.  But Jones' statement, of course, stems from his erroneous stance that participation in God plan of salvation equals being the source of that salvation.  

A pharmacist once provided me with an antibiotic that cured me of an infection.  Therefore, I could say that the pharmacist participated in the process by which I was cured, because was the one who filled the prescription and handed me the drug.  By Jones' reckoning, this means that I am saying that the pharmacist, and not the drug, actually did the healing.  This reasoning, of course, is too silly to be taken seriously.

Basically, the rest of Jones' chapter is devoted to providing Scriptural evidence that Jesus is the one who saves us from our sins, and that no one else does.  The Catholic Church could not agree more.  After all...

"Salvation comes from God alone."
-Catechism #169.

Alas, yet another quote from the Catechism that Jones, no doubt, hopes his readers never see!

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[Melody]

I agree with everything you have written RevEric & Tina, will touch on what you haven't:

"Taken up to heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..." Pg. 252, #969

I think the key word that Jones seems to have missed here is INTERCESSION - which points out that Salvation is not something that our Blessed Mother can offer us herself, but rather pray for us to attain.


The best way to mislead people is to put a truth next to a lie & because the truth is obvious, people by default take the lie to also be the truth. Take for example these next two sentences of Jones.

According to God's Word, Mary has never had anything to do with the salvation process. Scripture reveals that Jesus is the ONLY One who can provide salvation

The second sentence is the truth. Definetely Jesus is the ONLY One who can provide salvation. As the Rev. pointed out, the Catholic Church totally advocates & teaches this truth.

But the first sentence (conviniently grouped with the truth) is a complete lie. How can one say that according to God's Word, Mary has never had anything to do with the salvation process?

Here's just a couple of things she did:

(01) She let the Word of God be born in her through her obedience to God's Will. Here began the salvation process. Emmanuel - God made Man - being possible through Mother Mary

(02) She believed in Jesus, that He was the Son of God. She raised Him as any mother would raise a child. Except that she would obviously have had SUCH a massive responsibility knowing well that the child in her was born of the Spirit & that she would have to be doubly careful of what / how / when she taught Jesus stuff as He was growing up. He was doubtless God, but He also was man. And to negate His mother's role in His growing up would be just silly. Here continued her role in the process.

(03) She was present with Jesus completely through His Ministry, His Passion & His Death. She was present, she was His support & she still is. Hence continuing her role.

(04) She was present during the ressurection & ascention & even post ascention of Jesus. She continued to be with the Apostles of Jesus praying. She was present during the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost. Hence continuing her role.

No one is saying Mother Mary can provide salvation. But let's open our eyes & acknowledge that if any single person had the maximum part of the salvation process, then it was Mother Mary.

And her role continues even today as we saw in the earlier sentence, through her Intercession.

Still the Catechism insists:
"She (Mary) is inseparably linked with the saving work of her Son." Pg. 303, #1172

Based on what I've stated above, how can the Catechism not link her with the saving work of her Son then?? Note again, the key word being link and the 'saving work' is attributed to 'her son' and not her.

Without question, Jesus is the Savior, not Mary.

Jones harps on & on about this truth, implying that the Catholic Church teaches anything else but this. All the scripture quoted before this sentence are all true. And def. no one in the Catholic Church is denying it.

And finally to answer the question that the Rev. didn't:

Why does the Catholic church want people looking to Mary instead of Jesus for salvation?

  Sometimes I wish I could be allowed some righteous anger. People like Jones who obviously have no REAL clue about what the Catholic Church wants/advocates or else who are for whatever motives indulging in "dishonest Catholic bashing" (as the Rev put it); really deserve a knock on their heads.

HELLO Jones??? Where in the Catechism have you read that statement??

Instead Mr. Jones, read some of these (few of the multitude) statements which ARE in the Catechism:

(01) Paragraph # 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.

(02) Paragraph # 15  The second part of the Catechism explains how God's salvation, accomplished once for all through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit,

(03) Paragraph # 2666  The name "Jesus" contains all: God and man and the whole economy of creation and salvation. To pray "Jesus" is to invoke him and to call him within us

(04) Paragraph # 987  our Lord Jesus Christ, the only author and liberal giver of salvation

(05) Paragraph # 389  the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ

Need I go on Mr. Jones?

Blessings,

Melody

[Seeker]

Wow, once Tina, Rev. Eric, and Melody get through with one of Jones' lies, there's nothing left.  

Great posts all.  

This is yet another example of anti-Catholics trying to tell Catholics what we believe.  

They accuse us of worshipping Mary and elevating her to the level of God.

We explain the difference between veneration, intercession, and worship.  

Then they usually counter that there is no difference between veneration, intercession and worship as Catholics do it.  The part that really irks me when they say this is that they presume to know our hearts and then act as our judge.

It seems to me, they must peddle a lie in order to refute the truth.  When presented with the truth, they then deny it, falling back on their original lie.

Please forgive me, I've seen a lot of these lies lately and am getting a little fed up with them.  Lies such as Rick Jones peddles are designed to draw the weak in faith from the fold of the Catholic Church.  That is why it is so important to strengthen each other.  That is why community and church are so important.  

Divide and then conquer.  What an effective strategy.

I personally learn a lot from dissecting this stuff.  It brings out the tactical deceptions that are used to hide and distort the truth.  Once brought to light, they wither in the heat of the real truth.

[cfcoelho]

Last week I was caught in an argument about Blessed Mary with a Catholic friend.The friend argued to no end that since Blessed Mary is the mother of God ,she is also God.Then I asked her "since St Joseph was the father of God, is he also God ? "

Our friend had no answer.I explained to her that there is only one God in the form of the Holy Trinity.Blessed Mary is the most powerful intercessor ever.We must pray for her intercession rather than worship her.Our friend is not convinced yet. I am sure many more may be there in the wilderness with such confused beliefs.Creating awareness through forums like these will enlighten them.

Praise Jesus


Colin

[Seeker]

Good point Colin.  We need to stand for the truth about the Blessed Mother whatever side the argument falls on.  

I know this forum has already helped me in my understanding of our faith and cleared up some misperceptions I had.  

For that I praise the Lord!

I will pray that your friend comes to believe the truth of your words.