The Glorify God Community
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 18, 2012, 10:02:24 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Subscribe to feeds from The Glorify God Community. Read more.
1767 Posts in 376 Topics by 117 Members
Latest Member: Preshit
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  The Glorify God Community
|-+  Other Forums on Glorify-God
| |-+  Misc. Religious Topics
| | |-+  Why Are We Here?
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Why Are We Here?  (Read 1158 times)
Rev. Eric
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 138



« on: May 09, 2004, 01:25:44 PM »

Hello All,

I subtitled this post "Dedicated to Mary Liz" because I started it as a response to her post "Alchemy".  But then I thought that this deserved to be a topic in its own right, because it might prompt a philosophical discussion that would take us away from the conversation on alchemy.

This post addresses how to engage non-Christians in a conversation about the merits of Christianity.  Obviously, the essential thing to do would be to pray for them, but what are some things we can do in addition to that?  If the person is open to philosophical dialog, we can try to get him to think about Christianity along the lines of the old philosophical question, "Why are we here?"  Here are some points that I will make regarding this.

1)  Creation is not eternal and, generally speaking, science and western philosophy agrees that nothing in creation (meaning the realm of time and space) can create itself out of nothing.  In other words, things within creation owe their existence to something else.

2)  Ultimately, all of creation is brought into being by a force who is outside of time and space.  This Creator is eternal and, therefore, was not created, nor needed to be created.  The Creator represents eternal, timeless perfection.

3)  All humans are "programed" to love.  The meaning of existence seems to be a search to love others and be loved in return.

4)  If the meaning of existence is love, then the meaning of creation is love (because we were created to carry out an existence of love).  Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the meaning of the Creator is also love.  We all know how essential love is, and this stems from the fact that it mirrors the nature of Creator.

5)  If #4 is not true, then we have to ask what the point of creation is.  Because the Creator is eternal, timeless perfection, it was not necessary for Him to create anything.  In other words, there is nothing lacking in His own existence that he needed to create the universe to fill.  If He was lacking something essential, then He is not perfection.  Therefore, why create anything if it is not necessary?  Because the Creator embodies loves, the answer is obvious.  Love has the natural desire to share its goodness beyond what is necessary.  Therefore, creation is an act of love.  If this is not true then one is hard pressed to explain why anything was created.

6)  Therefore, the Creator (whom I will now start referring to as God) created the universe and everything in it as an act of love.  Moreover, true love is founded in a relationship, so it makes sense that creation would include persons capable of knowing God and loving Him in return.  This is why humans were created, as well as one of the reasons why we were created in God's image and likeness.

7)  The goal of love is union between loving persons.  Love brings two people close together in bonds of matrimony, friendship, etc.

Cool  Christ is God and He also became man.  In His person, divinity is perfectly united with humanity in a loving embrace.  This is the Incarnation.  The goal of love in perfectly completed between Creator and creation.

9)  Love involves giving of yourself to another, and this is means sacrifice.  As we all know, some loving sacrifices are small and some are very great.  The greatest act of love is to lay down one's life for another, because this is the greatest sacrifice.  In the Passion and death of Christ, God did this greatest act of love for all humanity.

10)  As stated above, love is essentially about union and sacrifice.  If God created us as an act of love, and if God is perfect love, then we would certainly expect Him to perform for us the greatest act of union conceivable, as well as the greatest act of sacrifice conceivable.  I submit that the Incarnation is the greatest act of union conceivable, and the Passion and death of Christ is the greatest act of sacrifice conceivable.  Both of these things are found in the person of Jesus Christ.  

To my knowledge, no other religion expresses these essential aspects of love.  That is why I believe that Christianity has merit beyond non-Christian beliefs.  If anyone disagrees then I welcome further discussion in this forum.  I do not want anyone to think that I am being disrespectful of other people's beliefs.  But I believe that Jesus is (as He said Himself) the Way, the Truth and the Life.  And, therefore, any system of belief that excludes Him will be lacking some important things.  Other religions can, and do, have many good things, but if Jesus is the embodiment of perfect truth then any system of belief without Him is, by definition, deficient.

Moreover, all of my 10 points can be discussed in greater detail.  So please let me know if I need to clarify anything I've said herein.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric
Logged
Seeker
Global Moderator
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 430



« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2004, 01:51:16 PM »

Rev Eric,

Excellent!  I like your approach to discussion with non-believers.  The idea that the purpose of creation is ultimately love is something I think most people (whatever beliefs they have) can identify with.

I have one question though.  How do we explain the apparent contradiction of God being love, with the slaughter of various peoples in the Old Testament.  I'm thinking about the destruction of unrepentant cities, the slaughter of men, women, and children by the Hebrews (apparently at the command of God) and the death of the priests of Baal at the hand of the prophet Elijah (maybe Elisha, I forget which) at the river (where he slit their throats).

This has always bothered me personally, and is bound to come up in discussions with non-believers.
Logged

Seeker[/b][/size]
Ave Maria, Virgo Fidelis[/font]
-If you continue in my word... you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. Jn 8:31-32
-For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds... Mt 7:8; Lk 11:10
Rev. Eric
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 138



« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2004, 07:23:35 PM »

Seeker, you have raised a very important question.  Many Christians and non-Christians have been understandably perplexed about the issues you presented.  I have heard a number of theories that have tried to explain this.  For example, a man I know who works as a tour guide in Israel feels that God never really ordered those Old Testament killings, but that the stories were told in that manner to serve as military propaganda (i.e., to frighten the enemies of Israel).

On another note, I seem to recall Lee Strobel presenting a very good explanation of these things in one of his books (I believe it was The Case for Faith).   Unfortunately, my copy of this book is temporarily in storage and it will be awhile before I can get to it.  I could try to bring up the points he made from memory, but I am afriad I could not do justice to Mr. Strobel's material, and therefore I will set that aside for now.

Hence I will now put my own spin on the seeming contradiction between a God of love and mercy, and the bibical accounts of slayings that happened in His name and, according to the text, under His direction.

I will begin with an example.  Let us say that a physics expert is hired to teach elementary school mathematics.  An onlooker observes this professor in action with these kids and sees the kids being taught the basics of addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.  Now, what if the onlooker said, "This professor is not truly a physics expert, because he is not teaching any of his students physics!"?  Such a proclamation, of course, would be silly, because no one is capable of learning physics until one first learns mathematics.

God had a much bigger task at hand than teaching math.  When God revealed Himself to His Chosen People, He had to teach them about Himself, and about the relationship between Him and humanity.  This included God teaching people about love.

As I stated in my initial post, all humans are "programed" to love, but this does not mean that we are automatically experts on love and do not need to be taught anything concerning it.  For example, a man can readily see that having a wife and children is a great thing, as love goes, but what if he decides that it's ok to take another man's wife and children?  This is wrong, even if done for the sake of love.  Thus, although we are programed to know about love and to engage in acts of love, God teaches us how to love properly.  And, just as the professor in my above example did not dump physics on elementary school students, God did not dump all the various teachings of love and morality on Abraham.  He started with the basics and built upon them.

Furthermore, the early Hebrews did not have an understanding of an afterlife (as that was "advanced course material").  They believed that any rewards and punishments God would give a person had to happen within that person's life time.  That is why some of the Old Testament writers were bewildered at the fact that bad things sometimes happened to good people, and good things sometimes happened to bad people.

The first thing that God taught the Hebrews about Himself was that He was Life Itself.  If you had God then you had life, if you did not then you had death.  Because of this, being an idol worshiper was seen as being on a road to death.  Furthermore, the followers of the Canaanite religions engaged in many wicked practices, such as temple prostitution and wholesale child sacrifice.  God told the Hebrews to avoid the ways of the Canaanites and to eradicate their practices if they started to "infect" the Hebrew culture.  Many times the Hebrews found themselves attracted to foreign ways, and they needed harsh lessons to keep them in the straight and narrow.  These were necessarily lessons in life and death.

So here is the main thrust of all this:
A) The Hebrews needed to understand that foreign ways were the ways of death.
cool All foreign practices had to be eradicated from their midst.
C) The covenant between the Hebrews and God was a two-way relationship.  The Hebrews were not supposed to sit back and let God take care of everything.  Rather the Hebrews had to live their faith and even fight for it.  The Hebrews had to do their part in the world as being "agents" of God.  

So what did the Hebrews learn when engaging in military campaigns against the Canaanites (and what did they learn when Elijah killed the prophets of Baal)?  The learned, in very tangible, concrete terms:

1)  Sin must be radically and fiercely combated.  If the Hebrews had to take up arms against the Canaanites to root out their sinful ways, then it is also important for the individual Hebrew to combat his own sinful ways, and take up spiritual arms to root out the sin in his own life.

2)  God is all-powerful.  Generally speaking, the Hebrews were victorious over their enemies, even when the odds were heavily against them.  The Canaanite "gods" were powerless to protect their own people.  Furthermore, the ancient people believed that gods were tied to specific regions.  The Egyptian gods, for example, operated withing the geographical boundaries of Egypt.  The military campaigns of the Hebrews showed that God could operate well outside the boundaries of the Promised Land (i.e., His territory) and, again, the other "gods" were powerless to stop Him, even when they were defending their own turf.

3)  God is the way of Life and the Canaanite ways led to death.  Remember, the ancient Hebrews believed that the Canaanites (like everyone else) had to meet their fate in the here and now.  Because the Hebrews had a hand in these people getting wiped out, they saw this principle dramatically fulfilled in the here and now.

4)  Not only did the Hebrews learn this lesson, but the foreigners learned it as well.  Hebrew priests and Canaanite priests could have debated theololgy for ages with neither side gaining any headway.  But when a Canaanite priest watched his armies get wiped out by the Hebrews and then see his town get ransacked, it spoke volumes about who was truly Boss.

We could argue that God could have arranged for all these lessons in a "nicer" way, but it was a different world back then, and a very violent one.  Violence resulted in people abusing their freewill to inflict harm on others, and God had to teach His Chosen People things within this violent reality.  Basically, the Hebrews had to know how to fight.

Over time God could expand upon His teachings.  But before he could teach about love and morality, He first had to teach about life and death.

Furthermore, the Hebrew conquest of Canaanite towns was not done in surprise attacks.  People were given advance warning to leave, and they may have been given the opportunity to convert as well.  But what happens if they don't leave and don't convert?  If left alone, they would carry on like they always did, sacrificing children and trying to talk the Hebrews into worshipping their gods, with all the sensual temptations of the vices at their command (lust, greed, gluttony, etc.).  

Those were drastic, primative times and called for drastic primative actions.  Moreover, these actions were commited by people who did not yet have the same advanced understanding of love and morality as we do today.  We are like physics students looking at elementary class math students and wondering why they are not using more advanced equations to solve their problems.

I hope this was helpful.  If anyone has a copy of The Case for Faith handy then perhaps he or she would be willing to present Lee Stroble's points regarding all this.  I probably touched on some of his material above.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric
Logged
Seeker
Global Moderator
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 430



« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2004, 11:22:36 PM »

Rev. Eric,

Thank you for that excellent explanation.  I knew if anyone could help me understand this perplexing dilemma, you could. Smiley   Thanks again.  Your explanation makes good sense to me.
Logged

Seeker[/b][/size]
Ave Maria, Virgo Fidelis[/font]
-If you continue in my word... you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. Jn 8:31-32
-For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds... Mt 7:8; Lk 11:10
Rev. Eric
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 138



« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2004, 12:17:40 AM »

You're very welcome Seeker.  After previewing my last post, I noticed that if someone types a "B" followed by a " ) " it turns into a  cool  when you post it.  So I hope that no one reading my last post will think that I was saying that it was cool ( cool ) that foreign practices had to be eradicated from Hebrew society, especially when this sometimes meant eradicating the foreigners themselves.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric
Logged
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.5 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!