4 Questions

[Satish]

Have four genuine questions about Christianity & Catholicism. Kindly help!

(01) The Baptism that John gave was the Baptism of water. This was done by John so that people turn away from Sins. Is this the Baptism that Catholics receive? I have seen babies receiving this baptism. What does this Baptism on the babies signify? Also, in Acts of the Apostles, Paul talks about Baptism by Fire. Is this necessary for a catholic?

(02) In the Apostles Creed, we have a Line, "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Communion Of Saints..". Please explain what is the meaning of "Communion of Saints".

(03) Why did Jesus descend to the dead?

(04) It was prophesied that someone would betray Jesus. Christ knew Judas was the one. He also knew Peter would disown Him. Jesus, says to Peter, don't worry...i have prayed for you. Why didn't Jesus pray for Judas? Judas, after betraying goes back to the Jewish Leaders and gives them back the silver coins and tells them to release Jesus. Then, when they don't, he goes and commits suicide. Did Judas go to hell?

Thanks.

God bless.

Regards,

Satish

[Seeker]

Hi Satish and welcome!

I'll take a stab at your first question and allow others a chance to answer.

The Baptism that John gave was the Baptism of water. This was done by John so that people turn away from Sins. Is this the Baptism that Catholics receive?

John's baptism is not the same Baptism that Christians receive.  John's baptism was strictly a call to repentance.  The Baptism we receive is a Baptism of the Spirit, the Sanctifier, in which we are sanctified and regenerated into Christ and become adopted sons and daughters of God in Christ. Repentance is a part of this, but not the entirety of Christian Baptism.  It is so much more than John's baptism, which preceded Christ's public mission. John's baptism prepared the way for Christ's saving mission.  Catholics believe that the Baptism we receive is a real spiritual regeneration in which we are cleansed from all sin and literally become a new person in Christ.  John's baptism, as I understand it, was a ritual washing rather than a real spiritual cleansing.  John’s baptism stressed interior conversion and prepared people to receive Christ’s grace.  It was more of a rite of penance and fulfilled the prophecies.  Christian Baptism cleanses souls of sin, making us new.

See Mt 3:11, Mk 1:4, Lk 3:16, Jn 1:33, Titus 3:5, Rom 6:3-5, Col 2:9-12, 1 Pet 3:21

Also see CCC 535-537; 1265-1272.

I have seen babies receiving this baptism. What does this Baptism on the babies signify?

Because we are all born with the stain of original sin, and because baptism is a true cleansing from all sin, babies who are baptized become a part of the Body of Christ and are cleansed of the stain of “original sin.”  To be clear, when I say “original sin”, I do not mean it as a personal fault. It is really a lack of the original holiness and justice that Adam and Eve were created with.  It is a deficiency that we inherited from humanity’s original parents because of their disobedience and turning away from God.

“Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.”  Humanity turned from God in Adam and Eve.  By God’s grace, we can turn back.  Baptism is an initiation into a life of God’s grace.  Baptism is a spiritual seal in which we are initiated into God's family through Christ.  Babies, being unable to speak for themselves, are spoken for by their parents or guardians and since they have no personal sin, Baptism cleanses them from original sin and makes them one in Christ.  This is why baptism is called a sacrament of initiation.  It has been compared to what circumcision was according to the Old Covenant.  Baptism of infants is more than just a symbol, it is a real spiritual regeneration and forgiveness of all sins.

See Col 2:11, 1 Cor 1:16, Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33 (when whole households were baptized, these could have included infants.  Infants are certainly not excluded.).

Also see CCC 405, 1246, 1250-1252.

Also, in Acts of the Apostles, Paul talks about Baptism by Fire. Is this necessary for a catholic?

Are you speaking of Acts 19:3-4, baptism in the Spirit or Lk 3:16 which refers to baptism in Spirit and fire?  I think the baptism by fire was when the tongues of flame descended upon the Apostles and they received the Holy Spirit.  I think this would be different than what is referred to as Baptism.  This would be more like the sacrament of Confirmation and the laying on of hands by the apostles in Acts and the Epistles.  If I am misunderstanding your reference, please correct me.  Baptism is necessary, but strictly speaking, Confirmation is not, if that is what you are referring to.

If no one addresses your other questions, I would be happy to give them a try also.  Let me know if you have any questions about my answers and I will try to clarify them.

[Melody]

Hey Satish,

Since I'm second, I'll give your second question a Go I will start by quoting the CCC as under:

960 The Church is a "communion of saints": this expression refers first to the "holy things" (sancta), above all the Eucharist, by which "the unity of believers, who form one body in Christ, is both represented and brought about" (LG 3).

961 The term "communion of saints" refers also to the communion of "holy persons" (sancti) in Christ who "died for all," so that what each one does or suffers in and for Christ bears fruit for all.

962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG # 30)

I will now attempt to explain the above in simple lay terms.
I'll start with(962) as I think understanding that will make the other two easier to understand:

It means having a communion, i.e. Fellowship (The condition of sharing similar interests, ideals, or experiences, as by reason of profession, religion, or nationality) with the Saints of the Church.

The CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA states that

The communion of saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices.

Who are these 'Saints' ?
The Saints of the Church are the living believers, the dead believers in purgatory & the ones who've already reached heaven. More about Purgatory here..

So we are one body, with Jesus Christ as our head & all the different members, living, in purgatory & in heaven as different parts of that body. Hence, we can pray to the people in heaven to intercede for us & hence we are obliged to pray for the people in purgatory & we should do all we can for those living along with us  (bear one another's burdens, edify each other, fellowship etc) so that we can all make it to heaven.

Pt 960 talks about there being a union of Holy Things in the Church. For example, as it says, above all this would refer to the Holy Communion that we receive at Church during Holy Mass.

Pt 961 refers to the Communion of Saints as not only to the unity we have with each other as a body (which is brought out by 962), but the unity that we all have with each other as a result of Christ's redemptive act of dying for us on the cross.

Sometimes studying the theology behind what we believe is difficult. A friend of mine sings a song continously which helps her "Though we are many, we are one body, we are one body in Christ".

Hope this helps!

Blessings,

Melody

[Rev. Eric]

Hello Satish and All,

I'll go ahead and take a shot at Questions 3 & 4.

(03) Why did Jesus descend to the dead?

I will give you a long-held Christian belief that addresses this.  I do not know if what I am about to present counts as official Catholic doctrine, and I can't double- check at the moment because my resource books are currently boxed up (as I am in the process of moving).  Anyway, Jesus descended to the dead to preach the Good News to them, and here we must take a look at one of the ancient concepts of limbo.

Heaven and hell are the desitinations for those who have been judged according to their acceptance or rejection of the salvation provided for them by Christ.  The question remains, however, what happened to those who died before Jesus' death on the cross won that salvation for all humankind?

The ancients believed that all the dead went to limbo.  Those who lived evil lives were in the lower level of limbo and the righteous lived on the higher level.  The parable of Lazarus the Beggar (Lk 16:20 & ff.) seems to contain an illustration of this concept.

After Jesus died on the cross, he descended to the dead (i.e., those in limbo) in order for them to know Him and be given the opportunity to accept or reject His salvation.  Those who accepted it went to heaven and those who rejected it went to hell.  So it is at this time that the doors of heaven and hell were opened for all humankind, and that limbo was emptied and, presumbably, never used again (or at least not this particular incarnation of limbo as a kind of waiting room).

(04) It was prophesied that someone would betray Jesus. Christ knew Judas was the one. He also knew Peter would disown Him. Jesus, says to Peter, don't worry...i have prayed for you. Why didn't Jesus pray for Judas? Judas, after betraying goes back to the Jewish Leaders and gives them back the silver coins and tells them to release Jesus. Then, when they don't, he goes and commits suicide. Did Judas go to hell?

Why didn't Jesus pray for Judas?

Perhaps it's better to simply note that Scripture does not record Jesus specifically praying for Judas.  But Jesus did a lot of things that was never recorded in the Bible (Jn 21:25), so maybe He did.

It was prophesied that someone would betray Jesus. Christ knew Judas was the one. He also knew Peter would disown Him.

It is very interesting to compare Peter and Judas, because we see the different paths a fallen Christian can take, good and bad.  Both Peter and Judas denied Christ (although the nature and circumstances of the denial were different).  Both experienced great sorrow for what they did.  The big difference between them is that Peter repented and heroically led a Christian life while Judas dispaired and committed suicide.  Peter accepted the mercy and forgiveness of Jesus, and accepted the life and ministry that Jesus wanted him to embrace (Jn 21:15-19).  Judas despaired and took his own life, not giving Jesus a chance.  Peter allowed Jesus to be the master of his life, while Judas, in the very act of suicide, declared himself to be the master of his own life, and judged that life as no longer having any value.

Did Judas go to hell?

We who are still on earth do not know.  Jesus seems to declare dire consequences for the one who would betray Him (Mk 14:21), but we do not know if that includes hell.  Basically, we do not know who specifically is in hell, aside from Satan (and here I am talking about persons whose actual names are given in Scripture).

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[Rev. Eric]

P.S.,

Some may point out that Judas must have gone to hell because he committed suicide.  Suicide is a serious sin and the very nature of it does not allow the person the opportunity to repent.  Therefore, at first this suggests that those who commit suicide end up in hell.  Nevertheless, the Church also recognizes that a person who is not in the right state of mind may not be culpable for his actions, including suicide.  Indeed, we can assume that in many (if not most) cases of suicide, the person was suffering from great emotional and psychological turmoil and therefore was not in a proper state of mind.  So the fact that Judas committed suicide does not definitely mean that he went to hell.

I hope all this info was "Satish-factory" (sorry, I couldn't help it   ).

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[Satish]

Hi All,
Glad to be a part of the Glorify-God community!
Thanks for explaining the sacrament of Baptism and Communion.
Just to sum what Seeker has already simplified. God's grace cannot enter a person's life, unless he is cleansed of the Original sin and Baptism does just that!
Melody, your comments reminded me of yet another song,"Bind us together Lord".
God Bless!
Satish

[Satish]

Hi Rev. Eric,
Thanks for your comments.
I chanced upon your comments in the topic, "Can you sin without the devil". In that, you have mentioned,
Quote:
"If I can't fall into sin in and of my own accord, then that could be seen as a violation of my freewill. After all, if I am free, in and of myself, to truly choose God, then I am also free, in and of myself, not to choose God (which is what happens when we sin)."

This quote pretty much cleared things. Peter chose God and Judas didn't.

God bless!
Satish

[Satish]

PS:
Hi All,
Does any of you have the verses which support Rev. Eric's quote:
"Jesus descended to the dead to preach the Good News to them"
God bless!
Satish

[Seeker]

Hi Satish,

I believe the Biblical reference is 1 Peter 3:19 (NSRV)

17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if suffering should be God's will, than to suffer for doing evil.
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,
19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison,
20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you--not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.

Other translations use preached instead of made a proclamation .  The specific word used in Greek is kērussō.  

The Thayer Definition of the word is
1) to be a herald, to officiate as a herald
1a) to proclaim after the manner of a herald
1b) always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed
2) to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done
3) used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers

God Bless!

[Satish]

Hi Seeker,
The verses say that Jesus preached or proclaimed to 8 spirits, who were saved through water.
Is this place Hell? I ask this, because there are only 8 spirits here.
Moreover, who are these 8 spirits and how were they saved through water?
Thanks & God Bless!
Satish

[Seeker]

Hi Satish,

Here is a translation that may be more clear (NAB)

17
For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be the will of God, than for doing evil.
18
For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19
In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, 
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21
This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

There are two things described in this passage (verses 17-22):

[1]

17
For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be the will of God, than for doing evil.
18
For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19
In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark...

Christ preaching to the spirits in prison (i.e., Limbo, not Hell).  These are the ones who died before Christ's crucifixion. (verses 17-20)

Here I will quote Rev Eric for a description of Limbo and how it is different than Hell.  I think of it as a "waiting room" for Christ's saving death and his preaching to them so they would have a chance for salvation and eternal life.  Those who rejected Christ's message at this time were then sent to Hell.

Here is Rev Eric's description of Limbo and why it is not Hell.

I will give you a long-held Christian belief that addresses this. I do not know if what I am about to present counts as official Catholic doctrine, and I can't double- check at the moment because my resource books are currently boxed up (as I am in the process of moving). Anyway, Jesus descended to the dead to preach the Good News to them, and here we must take a look at one of the ancient concepts of limbo.

Heaven and hell are the desitinations for those who have been judged according to their acceptance or rejection of the salvation provided for them by Christ. The question remains, however, what happened to those who died before Jesus' death on the cross won that salvation for all humankind?

The ancients believed that all the dead went to limbo. Those who lived evil lives were in the lower level of limbo and the righteous lived on the higher level. The parable of Lazarus the Beggar (Lk 16:20 & ff.) seems to contain an illustration of this concept.

After Jesus died on the cross, he descended to the dead (i.e., those in limbo) in order for them to know Him and be given the opportunity to accept or reject His salvation. Those who accepted it went to heaven and those who rejected it went to hell. So it is at this time that the doors of heaven and hell were opened for all humankind, and that limbo was emptied and, presumbably, never used again (or at least not this particular incarnation of limbo as a kind of waiting room).

[2]  Here is the other half of the passage.  This part talks about the Flood and baptism.

20
...the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21
This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Who are the eight persons mentioned here?  These are Noah and his family who were saved during the flood.  The spirits in prison are everyone who died before Christ's death on the cross (not just Noah and his family).  Noah and his family are mentioned as part of the transition to a comparison of the saving act by God during the flood and His saving act in baptism.  Peter compares them being saved during the Flood to us being saved in baptism. Hope this helps.  Please let me know if I've just confused things even more.

[Satish]

Hi Seeker,
Great Explanation yet again.
Thanks and God bless!
Satish

[trmichels]

Greetings, may the Peace of the Lord be with you,

I'm kind new here, and I haven't been getting notified of topics or answers, so unless I check in regularly I dont' know what is going on (I found the notify box). I also just quit being a moderator/author of a Religion forum at www.hunting.net, where during a year I posted over 1300 times. Becasue the forum got into non-Christian religion, and I wouldn't back down from my belief that the only way to salvation is Christainity, and being "Baptized of water and the Spirit" I decided to leave. My beliefs did create some problems for those who wanted to be "religiously correct."  

Anyhow, I am a Charismatic Catholic, Catholic 55 years and Charismatic for 30. To learn more about me you can log on to my site at www.TRMichels.com and read my personal Christian Testimony, or my Christain Witness page.

That being said, we've had some excellent answers here, covered from the Catholic perspective. I love it when Christians use a Concordance to look original meanings of words, and use a Catholic Encyclopedia. I also use my Catholic Catechism a lot, which was sent to me by Archibishop Flynn in the Minneapolis/St. Paul diocese.

The only thing I can add is that I believe Confirmation is the Christian (Catholic) continuance of the "laying on of hands" that the apostles performed when they baptized "in the Spirit." Being "born again of water and the Spirit' is what saves us. It is our personal acceptance of belief that Jesus is God, Lord, Savior, and the belief that He died on the cross so we could be forgiven our sins. Confirmation is us "confirming" our belief and acceptence of the dogma stated in the Nicene Creed, which we repeat often at Sunday Mass.

As to "Baptism of Fire": for a Charismatic this means the trials we often go through after we have "been born again" or made a personal commitment to Jesus and Christiaity. After we have decided we want to have a personal relations ship with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, we are often beseiged or tempted by Satan. Enduring the siege and trials makes us stronger in our beliefs and resolve.

If you are not a Charismatic, you can read all about what it is, and what is involved, in the "A Born Again, Spirit Filled, Charismatic Christian" article on my "Christian Witness" page. And if you are not a "born again" Catholic, you don't know what you are missing.  

If any one has questions on Genesis, the Patriarchs the Flood, the Nephilim, or on Revelations, the occurrences and chronology of it, Armageddon, the Seven Heads, Ten Horns, beast, dragon Gog, Magog, let me know. I've studied them for 10 years, and still going.  


Your servant in Christ,

T.R. Michels
TRMichels@yahoo.com