Truth ?

[Ravi]

Is there anyting truly right or wrong ?

[Seeker]

I submit that to say otherwise is to make reality something that is dependent on what we think to be real.  To say that nothing is truly right or wrong (true or false) scientifically or morally assumes that there is no objective reality.

Here are a couple things to ponder:

1.  The statement that "nothing is truly right or wrong" cannot be true.  If nothing is truly right or wrong, then neither can this statement be right or wrong.  Therefore, the statement that "nothing can truly be right or wrong" cannot exist in the reality in which nothing is ever right or wrong.  

2.  However, the statement that there exists things that are truly right or wrong can exist in a reality in which there exists "right and wrong."  

3.  What can be gained by living according to a philosophy in which there is no objective truth or "right and wrong"?  Would there be consequences to our actions if there were no right or wrong?

[DavidFilmer]

Clearly there are objective truths. The ancient Greeks proved that the square root of two is an irrational number (although this truth was so radical that they were reluctant to publish their findings). Although it is impossible to ever write out the value of the square root of two (that's what an irrational number is), it can nonetheless be proven that this value can NEVER be written out. The nature of the thing can be demonstrated, even though the thing itself can never be precisely expressed (likewise for pi or the natural log of two, though the proofs are much more complex).

When applied to religion, proofs take different forms, but are no less valid. Numerous scholars have employed various logical forms to prove (at the very least) the existence of God (St. Thomas Aquinas proposed no less than five).

Although I consider myself rather well read in anti-Christian philosophers (Kant, etc), I have never read a convincing counter-argument.  Bertrand Russell at least taught me that being a mathematician (as I am) does not make you are a good philosopher! A good dose of humility for math guys!

[trmichels]

I'm going to post an article from my book Witness, A Christian Hunter's Insights and Outlook. Althoug it is primarily a discussion of whether or not there is a "god" and who that "god" is, I think that a belief in God is tied to the concept of "right and wrong". If we substitute the words "right" for good, and "wrong" for bad or evil in the article, I think you will see how I feel. And basically how mankind has developed the concept of "right and wrong". It is, in fact, tied to a belief in God, because it started when Lucifer became prideful.  

Is God Real?

     Sooner or later we must all ask ourselves, “What if there is no God? Would that make living the lifestyle of a Christian any less important? Would that make the philosophy of the Bible any less meaningful? Even if there is no God, and Christ was not the Son of God, can’t we still use the Bible as a manual on how to live our lives? Shouldn’t we still strive to achieve the lifestyle of what we call Christianity?

     Is there a God? The question seems almost rhetorical. From what historians and archaeologists have found it appears that even primitive man knew, or believed, there was a higher existence, something greater than mankind. Many of these primitive cultures offered sacrifice, honored, prayed to, or asked for help from, this higher existence. Earliest man may have believed that he came from “mother earth.” The Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Greeks and Romans of the Middle East and the Mediterranean area believed in several “gods.” The peoples of Asia believed in “gods” and “spirits.” The native Americans believed in “The Great Spirit.” Three of the world's most influential religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) believe in one God and in spirits or angels. Many of the people of these cultures and religions believe their god or gods created man, and believe that their gods could or did affect their lives. That is why they offered sacrifices, honored, prayed to, or asked for help from, this higher existence.

     Many of these people also believed there was a negative force that fought for control of earth and men’s lives, against the positive force or forces of the higher existence that created man. These negative forces were referred to as angry gods, evil spirits, devils, or Satan; and they came from Hades or Hell. In the Zoroastrian religion of ancient Persia this place was referred to as Ahriman, “the source of evil and lord of darkness.” But, what is evil? Many cultures regard anything that affects humans or their environment negatively as “bad.” If a person harms another person physically or emotionally, or affects their life in a negative way, it is considered "bad" or “wrong.” Anything that helps a person, or mankind, is considered “good” or “right.“ Thus, we have established that most humans believe there is a good and bad (evil), or right and wrong; and that there is a spiritual side to existence, and thus to mankind.

     Incidences of wrong or bad behavior, that may not cause physical danger injury, or emotional or spiritual harm or injury, that are not purposeful in nature, can be excused as accidental, and therefore can be forgiven or overlooked. Incidences of wrong or bad behavior, that cause physical danger or injury, or emotional or spiritual harm or injury, that are purposeful in nature, are not excusable, and are considered as wrong. Evil then, could be considered as anything that comes from purposeful wrong or bad behavior that results in physical danger or injury, or emotional or spiritual harm or injury, to another human. I don’t think that anyone would argue when I say that causing personal injury, rape and death, of hundreds of people by the Nazi's; and by various ethnic or religious groups against other ethnic or religious groups, is evil.

     Much of mankind has learned that coexistence with other humans is less stressful, more peaceful, and in the long run easier if we don’t treat each other badly, or wrong, especially if there is nothing evil involved. In fact, we have found that evil creates more evil. We have also found that treating others with kindness, respect, compassion, understanding and love, results in a less stressful, more peaceful and easier existence. There seems to be no reason not to be “good” or to treat others “right.”   
   
     If humans believe in "good," and believe that good may be related to a higher force, and that this higher force created humans, we have to ask, “Is there a God?” Since Christians trace their belief in a god back to Judaism, and the beliefs and history of the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch), let us look at the Bible as a historical reference about the belief in God. For the purposes of speaking about Christianity, let us refer to God as “Yahweh” or “Jehovah” which means “I am; the eternal living one,” because that is what the God of the Hebrews called himself when he appeared to Moses; “I am.“ 

     Although there may be differences of opinion about who actually wrote the Pentateuch, most religious scholars and Christians believe that Moses and other writers received inspiration from Yahweh about behavior (right and wrong? T.R.), religious rules, and laws. This inspiration, passed on by memory or writings; combined with memories and other writings about the history of the Hebrews, has been passed on to us through the Pentateuch, which is not only the foundation of our faith in Yahweh, but also in the Bible as the word of Yahweh. ...

Although the last few paragraphs may have nothing to do with the question at hand, I left them in, as food for thought (about whether ornt ther is a "god/creator".

I've left off part of the last paragraph, because it leads into the next article in the book.  

T.R.

[Satish]

I don't know, maybe I should start a new thread. This is regarding what T.R. has mentioned in the above article:

"Evil then, could be considered as anything that comes from purposeful wrong or bad behavior that results in physical danger or injury, or emotional or spiritual harm or injury, to another human."

My friend recently sent me a mail in which he talks about a personality who lost faith in God after he saw a child who had an incurable disease.
The child was suffering because of this disease. The personality asked this question, "Why did God create this child, just to make him suffer?".

Now, my question is, Isn't this type of suffering from the evil one?

God Bless!
Satish

[trmichels]

Satish,

I think we have to look to the Bible (big surprise) for answers as to why "bad" things happen to people. In this instance "bad" may not be evil, but rather something we would not want to happen, but it does.

But, the question still remains, "Why do bad things happen?"

Are bad things a result of human evil, Satanic evil, or "allowed" or "caused" by God? The answer coud be any one of those, or combinations of them.

In the OT there are several instances of bad things occurring to people or their offspring, to the 7th generation, as a result of their own or their forefather's bad behavior; because God told them it would happen. (Check the books of Kings) As a Charismatic I've learned that we can and should ask God to break these "family"curses. If we ask, God will stop this family curse. But, the point is God does allow some things we consider bad to happen. And He may cause some. This I suspect comes under the heading of "God's just punishment" in some cases. (Look at what God is going to do in Revelations.)

I think we all know and believe Satan causes some bad things, and, as Christians we are called upon to take them in stride, and pray for guidence and cessation of the bad thing/evil. It may be a "test" for us, in which we should rely on God no-matter-what. And if we do a good job of showing that we rely on God, it glorifies God, to those who see that our faith is not shaken/given up. (Which, in the case you mentioned, the person did not do.)      

But, we seem to forget (so easily) that our life/existence is really not about what we "have" or "get" on earth, but, it is rather, about how we "live" our lifes on earth. Life on earth for humans is a (big) test. We might get some rewards here for following "Christian" beliefs, and God. But, the final reward comes "after" life, (as we know it) ends. The final reward/prize is spending time in the presence of Yahweh, (our creator, who loves us and to whom we owe everything) in heaven.

Do we trust Yahweh? Do we rely on him? Do we put our hopes and faith in him? Do we honor, praise and glorify him in all things? If not, we are not living our lives as Christians, and we may not pass the test.

I can relate to this. My wife lost her job a year ago, and we have run out of savings, have no health insurance, and ran out of food two days ago. My wife and daughter had part time jobs, but their payroll checks have not come for the last month. We just found out why, the company is in receivership. We are also owed $1000 for a court case lawsuit. The court got the money over a month ago, but has yet to pay us "our" money. I'm due over $3000 in article payments, but I don't get paid until the article are published, which will be from August to December. I'm not looking for pity or assistance here. I just want you to know I can relate, and I still trust God. Somehow we are getting by, and I know it is by the "grace of God".

Please pray that my wife (Diane) finds the job the God want here to have.  


Note: I have to tell you, I firmly believe this response was God-inspired. It is what is known as (in 1 Cor 12:4-11) the Spiritual Gift of Wisdom. I know I'm not smart enough to come up with it all-on-my-own. Thank you Holy Spirit.  

This is the first time I have (knowingly) used this gift on this forum. If Yahweh see's fit, I hope it will continue. Make me humble enough to use your gifts wisely and properly Lord.


I'll pray that all of you, and all of your families, and all your descendants, live life as Christians should,

Your servant in Christ,

T.R.    

Pray for me. I've been asked to author/moderate a new Christianity forum on Bowhunting.Net. Which means I hopefuly will be able to reach out to some who don't know Yahweh. I'll let you know if and when it comes to fruition. Meanwhile anyone who wants to help me "reach out" to those who don't know Yahweh can join me on the Christianity forum on my site. I'll take all the help I can get.