What these Charismatic Fathers stand for?

[jesusandyou]

The popularly known Charismatic Preacher Fr.Augustine Valloran from Potta talks about becoming a born again Christian. He talks about salvation through Christ. I have also heard from people saying they got healed because of his prayers.

According to this page http://www.jeevan.tv/jeevanadmin/aboutus/aboutus.asp he is the director of JeevanTV, an TV Channel that is viewed by millions of people around the world. I had a chance to view this channel few times. What I saw on this channel is pure violence, sex, nudity and many more. Fr.Augustine has a half an hour TV program on this channel talking about miracles and the salvation through Jesus Christ. After that program you can see programs from other religions including one saying the salvation does not come through Jesus only.

Don't think I am trying to attack this preacher with some personal grudge. No! I am just curious. Does Fr.Augustine play a double standard here to generate money? Is Potta or Divine Retreat Center, a place of attraction rather than people who work there having real commitment to God? What's the truth?

[Seeker]

I have never seen the channel you are talking about (I'm in the US).  But what you describe doesn't sound like they are "Committed to be a complete family channel with its wholesome entertainment..."

[Melody]

Jeevan TV was originally a 100% Christian channel.

Over time, the lack of funding caused them to revamp and add more general programming. As the copy on their home page says

View it as a complete re-structuring of its core elements. A revamp which was the result of an in-depth analysis into the needs of the viewer as well as the advertiser - the latent need for quality infotainment.

I have however never seen Jeevan as though I'm from India, we do not get it here in Bbay.

Now about Rev. Fr. Augustine Valooran.

I do not know if Divine Retreat Center still runs a slot on Jeevan TV. Last I heard they were contemplating stopping it due to the change in format of the channel.

I do know this however: Divine Retreat Center & Potta are 100 (and 2) % holy. . You don't have to take my word for it - ask any of the 1000s of people who go there every week and receive not only physical healings, but mental, emotional, financial & greatest of them all - spiritual healings. Ask the alcoholics, the wife-beaters, the suicidal, the abortionists, the tons of different catagories of people who have been to Divine & changed their lives by choosing to believe in Jesus.

You want to know the truth?

Go there, and experience the Truth.

http://www.drcm.org

Blessings,

Melody

[jesusandyou]

I don't disagree with you that there is no miracle or healing taking place in Divine Retreat Center. In Kerala there is a Hindu pilgrimage center called Shabarimala. There are more people who are going to Shabarimala than who come to Divine Retreat Center. I can say from reports that there are more miracles happening in Shabarimala than in Potta. I know personally that there are lot of people who go there get freed from alcoholism, smoking etc... Now you may come with a counter argument that the miracles happening in Shabarimala is not because of the belief in Jesus. My counter argument then will be that how do you substantiate your salvation by the number of miracles or the healing that you received. Do you mean, since the Charismatic preachers preach in the name of Jesus and say to the crowd that there is a miracle happening in the crowd, its all because of Jesus? The preachers keep double standard. So whats the truth?

I have to totally disagree with you on holiness. Divine Retreat Center is a not a holy place. As the name says it is a Retreat Center. It should have been better put as rehabilitation center. And how many among these really keep their healings? Its all that great when you see miracles happen. But how many of those are real? Haven't you read in the news papers that there are criminals hiding in Divine Retreat Center. Unless you have a substantial evidence of everyone who leave that place keep that miracle there is no truth you can argue about.

If I go to Shabarimala or any other Hindu pilgrimage center and see a massive crowd and count the number of people and the healings taking place there and what happens at Divine Retreat Center, the truth is that Divine Retreat Center is another pilgrimage center. There is one difference. One markets Jesus and the other markets another Hindu God.

Are you bold enough to go and ask Fr.Augustine about why is he still the director of JeevanTV and promoting sex, nudity, violence and commercial films like FOR THE PEOPLE? Who's cheating who?

Don't curse me! I am not touching the anointed as in Psalm 105:15. But I am sure somebody should not be mislead in the name of Jesus.

[Melody]

Hello again,

You have made a lot of statements, many of them grievously wrong as per my personal knowledge and experience, so I’m going to do my take on a little of what you’ve said:

There are more people who are going to Shabarimala....there are more miracles happening in Shabarimala.....lot of people who go there get freed from alcoholism, smoking etc

I do not doubt that there are lots of places, other religions which can "heal" as per our human understanding of the word 'heal'. India, as you know, is famous for having lots of religions and new age practices. However this is the official Christian & Catholic belief: No one, NO ONE, but Jesus can offer you Salvation. You can choose to believe this is true or not, but Jesus is what we believe to be the only Truth.

I have to totally disagree with you on holiness. Divine Retreat Center is a not a holy place.

We started this conversation by talking about whether Potta or Divine Retreat Center was "a place of attraction rather than people who work there having real commitment to God". You said you wanted to know what "the truth" was. I suspect now, that you really have already made up your mind about it's holiness or lack of which.

I cannot understand your motivation for making such statements [I choose to believe you when you say you don't have personal grudges]. Even assuming what you purport about Fr. Valooran to be true (and I still have doubts about all this, as I pointed about before), EVEN THEN, you surely have no right to malign a retreat center that is preaching the Name of Jesus, renewing people's hearts & minds & bodies towards Christ!

How can you suggest that I am /DRCM is "substantiating salvation by the number of miracles or the healings"??

I never suggested that! Nor do they, ever! I suspect you're now playing on words. I agree with you (as I said earlier) "healings" (as per human terms) can take place at other places. Physical healings that take place can never be an accurate factor to judge a place's holiness. Perhaps I did not make myself clear when I said last time that there are (greatest of all) Spiritual healings taking place at DRCM, which as per the Catholic & Christian point of view can only be offered through Jesus Christ.

Some of salient features of DRCM are:
(01) It is run by Catholic priests under the Syro rite - Vincentian Congregation, very much part of the Catholic Church
(02) They Preach the Word of God as per the Bible, Catholic Bible and nothing else
(03) They show people the Way, the Truth & the Life.

And how many among these really keep their healings?... But how many of those are real?

There is nothing I can say to convince you if you do not believe!!

Personally, I cannot sit to number the people I know who have gone to DRCM and received some sort of blessing - physical, mental, emotional, financial & spiritual.

I know, because I know that I know.

Are you bold enough to go and ask Fr.Augustine about why is he still the director of JeevanTV and promoting sex, nudity, violence and commercial films like FOR THE PEOPLE? Who's cheating who?

Again you base your assumptions of the holiness of a place on the fact that you believe one of the directors is unholy/hypocritical. What if the oppposite was true? Would you say that Jeevan TV was a nice holy channel if you belived Fr. Vallooran, one of the directors was holy?? Surely you must see that more factors are involved.

Incidentally, I will talk to Fr. Valooran the next time I meet him - you can be sure of it I have, praise God, the Spirit of boldness not of timidity!

Don't curse me!

I never did brother!!

Again I suspect you are trying to anticipate my reactions ["Now you may come with a counter argument that ...."] and it is you who have said this not I.

In closing I would like to say this:

I do not intend to answer this thread again. for two reasons:

(01) It hurts me too much to see Christians and Catholics lash out against institutes and places of worship which are bringing more sheep into the fold and finding the lost ones & healing the hurt ones.

(02) I suspect your mind is already made up about this case. I've made my point clear enough (I hope) and there is no need, I feel, to flog a dead horse.


You have the right to believe what you want - that's your right, your God given free will. But if, as you say you are, are keen that "somebody should not be mislead in the name of Jesus." I would urge you brother not to make statements such as the ones you have made here.

Blessings,

Melody

[Ayodhya Nath Bhat]

Bro Jesusandyou,

I am a Born Again Christian writing in a Catholic environment.The Divine Retreat Centre is an institution par excellence as I have attended it myself.Kindly refrain from passing  acidic comments on DRC.

Love

Ayodhya

[jesusandyou]

Brother, you are writing not in a Catholic Environment. You are writing in the Apologetics section of a Glorify God community. If you well understand what Apologetics is, then you can expect questions to defend what you belief. That may even come from a non-Christian. You should not be intimidated, but give answer with rationality.

So, DRC is par in excellence in what? Holiness?

Don't you think DRC can go far beyond excellence by bringing Amitabh Bachan or a bollywood actress to it’s daily retreat and talk about Jesus.

Brother, don't simply go to a gathering and believe whatever they proclaim. Never get excited by the crowd nor get proud that you are a Born Again Christian when the so called "anointed" preachers say you are Born Again.

Will you become the director of a TV Channel promoting violence, sex, nudity and then going to DRC to do miracles in Jesus name? Make your leaders accountable for what they do.

Is there any reason why Jesus said this?

And then if any one says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. But take heed; I have told you all things beforehand. Mark 13:21-23

[DavidFilmer]

In Hinduism, cows are afforded special honor as symbols of God’s generosity. This gives rise to the English expression, “sacred cow,” which means something “unreasonably held to be immune to criticism” (dictionary.com). The attitudes of Melody and (especially) Ayodhya (who basically told jesusandyou, “take your criticism elsewhere”) suggest that they view the topic of the DRC as a “sacred cow.” In an apologetics forum, there are no sacred cows!

I’m an impartial but interested reader. I have never heard of Fr. Augustine Valloran, the DRC, or Jevian TV, so I bring no bias to the thread.

It’s not clear to me exactly what the relationship is between Jevian TV and the DRC. The DRC currently broadcasts programming on Jevian TV (according to the DRC website), and Fr. Valloran (the sole director of DRC) is one of several directors of Jevian TV (according to the Jevian website).

The direction that Jevian has taken is very troubling. Can you imagine Mother Angelica allowing EWTN to broadcast pornography? She would close down the network before allowing it to be used this way! Perhaps a Christian network might be economically compelled to include some measure of secular content, but in no way to allow the sort of programming that jesusandyou observed. Assuming that what jesusandyou says is true, the Faithful certainly have a right to question Fr. Valloran’s involvement in Jevian.

From what I can tell about the DRC (and my information is limited to the DRC's own website – obviously a limited perspective) they do much good work, and many people strongly believe in their ministry.

However, the point raised by jesusandyou is quite valid – the miraculous works of the DRC that seem to attract so much attention are not necessarily a sign of holiness, or even of Godliness, and, in fact, could be a very troubling thing.

From a Catholic perspective, the Church proscribes a fairly limited set of beliefs (dogma) which must be held by all the Faithful. Everything else is optional. Yet, She has declared several miraculous events to be "worthy of belief." But for every event She endorses, She condemns dozens of others.  Consider the category of apparitions of the Virgin. There are a few apparitions worthy of belief, such as Lourdes or Fatima, but LOTS of condemned events like Medjugorje (Yugoslavia), Bayside (NY USA), Belluno (Italy), Palmar de Troya (Spain), Pescara (Yugoslavia), Little Pebble (Australia), Sainte Germaine du lac Etchemin (Quebec), and Garabandal (Spain), for example.

Yet, these false apparitions have attracted thousands of followers and MANY miracles have been claimed.  But, if the Virgin was not responsible, then who was? Why, the devil, of course! Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light (cf 2Cor 11:14) and deceive the faithful. Amazingly, some of these false and discredited apparitions STILL attract and deceive the Faithful, despite the Church’s condemnation (especially Medjugorje).

I’m not saying the DRC is being used by Satan to manipulate the Faithful – I have no idea if it is or isn’t. But I’m reluctant to accept its Godliness based on personal testimonies – all of the people fooled by all the false Marian apparitions were (at one time) equally convicted of the divine nature of that experience, only to discover they were tricked by the Great Deceiver. Are those who support the DRC any more immune to deception than those good people who supported and believed in false Marian apparitions (or those who continue to do so)

From a statistical perspective, MOST places that attract large crowds and have many miracles associated with them are found to be baseless when formally investigated by Magesterial authority. If you visit ten "spiritual hot spots," rest assured that at least nine of them (and, more likely, all ten) have NO divine origin. And it's not the aethiests saying so - it's our own Church leadership. The odds are definately not in DRCs favor.

I would MUCH rather doubt something that’s true (except dogma) than believe something that’s false. If the director of the DRC is, indeed, involved in doing the Devil’s work by promoting violent and pornographic broadcasting then it gives me considerable reason to question the core values of the DRC itself, because an organization is obviously influenced by its leadership.

I hope Melody has the opportunity to ask Fr. Valloran about this and post his response in this forum.

[jesusandyou]

JeevanTV is available throughout the world, however its not an English Channel. Their website is www.jeevan.tv. It's a publically listed company in India. That means they take investment from non-Christians and Christians, and do entertaintment for them. See their program schedules and make your own judgement.

5:00 AM CHRISTIAN DEVOTIONAL SONGS
5:30 AM RAMAYANAPARAYANAM
6:00 AM DEVAMRUTHAM
6:30 AM VACHANADEEPTHI
12:30 PM STREAMS OF GRACE
3:30 PM MALAYALAM FEATURE FILM

In the above program schedules, the program Streams Of Grace is from DRC. The program Ramayanaparayanam is reading the Hindu scripture Ramayanam. Funny to say this. A Viewer has an alternative when it comes to salvation. Either he can have salvation through Jesus (something Fr.Augustine promotes) else through someone else. We are missing a muslim program here. During the Ramsan (the holy season of Muslims), they have Muslim programs also.

Once what I saw on this channel surprised me. A violent scene in which one person passes a sharp knife into the heart of another person and proclaiming the vengence of a Hindu God. Try to watch their prime time programs. Its full of nudity, sex and criticisms of United States Of America from Muslim Leaders.

A reliable source told me sometime back that Jeevan TV was founded by Fr.Augustine Valloran. Yes, the source is one of the leader who is serving the DRC right now. The source also told me that he was the one who gave the idea to Fr.Augustine to start such a channel. I believe the reason why Fr.Augustine is one of the director still is because he was the founder. Fr.Agustine is also the director of the English section of DRCM. He is the main speaker for their retreats. I have friends who attended his retreats and got healings. One of my friend testified that she had headache and got healed.

Fr.Augstine should give a response himself on why he is serving as the director of a secular TV Channel as well as the director of a Catholic Charismatic movement. He has to come clean. He should either serve Mammon, otherwise he should serve God only. He can't serve both.

[Seeker]

Whew, is it getting warm in here or is it just me?  

I'm sensing some strong feelings with regards to the DRC's (for and against) activities.  I'm personally in the same boat as DavidFilmer, I don't know much about it or Jeevan TV yet.  So I'm reading this discussion (as objectively as possible) in the hopes of learning more from you all.

At the risk of sounding "holier than thou," just want to post a reminder that we need to keep the spirit of Christ in all discussions in this Community.  

This is an emotionally charged issue with strong feelings on both sides.  Passion about your point of view can be a good thing, but we need to keep Christ in our hearts for each other as we discuss things.  We can disagree vehemently on a subject without making judgments about the person who holds a contrary view.

Just pointing this out in general.   See 5 and 6 of the forum rules here.  

May the Holy Spirit guide and enlighten us with His Truth and Love.

[Melody]

Dear all,

I am here now in my capacity as moderator.

I wish to let you all know that I have deleted the last couple of posts which had references to people here at the community, keeping with what Seeker has posted above.

I have also decided to lock this topic as I see no good fruit coming from it. I hope you all respect my decision in the spirit in which it was taken.

We here at this community are all Family! While it's perfectly natural that family members will not agree with each other about everything - it is important that we as a family should strive to maintain peace by agreeing to disagree about certain things and leave it at that.

Blessings,

Melody