Taking Legal Action

[jesusandyou]

Is it Christian if I sue another Born Again Christian for cheating me for money? What are the Christian ethics should I follow before suing the other Born Again Christian?

[DavidFilmer]

Well, let's consider what Our Lord has to say:

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.  If he refuses to listen to them, tell the Church. If he refuses to listen even to the Church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. [Matthew 18-15-17]

So if the person will not heed even the authority of the Church , then you are free to treat him/her as if s/he were not a member of the Church at all.  Presumably you could then seek action in Court with a clear conscience.

[jesusandyou]

Is it contradictory to what Lord prayed in his prayer which we call it Lord's prayer? In that prayer Lord says "as we forgive our debtors".

[Melody]

Firstly, ditto to everything that David said  

Secondly,

Is it contradictory to what Lord prayed in his prayer which we call it Lord's prayer? In that prayer Lord says "as we forgive our debtors".

I think definetely, it would be a higher and more supernatural path to take to try to forgive as He forgives - seventy times seven (i.e. as many times as necessary) especially taking into account what we have sinned & how much He has forgiven us.

Whether we are all capable of taking that path - that's not certain! And sometimes legal action may even be called for. It's all a matter of individual cases really, I don't think one can hit the mark with a general statement.

Blessings,

Melody

[jesusandyou]

What I don't agree with Melody is the liberal approach that she takes. If the Truth is unique, and the Bible has the ultimate truth, then it applies the same to all the Christians -- the Bible can't be wrong in one place and be right in another place. There is no individual case where the Truth applies differently. If you are a Christian and I am a Christian, it applies the same way -- both to you and me.

What I believe as the right answer is in the prayer that Jesus prayed. Mathew 18:15-17 does not say we need to take the person to the court. It says consider the person as someone who does not believe in God and as a tax-collector. That means he should be allowed to continue in the Church or Fellowship where he belongs, but believing in God is upto him to decide. You can't force him to accept the mass or confess. Yes, this applies to someone who is in your fellowship or claiming as a Christian. Take the second part of the verse and take the example of cheating of money that I said. If I take Melody's response, is there a limit we should apply when the Born Again Christian need to be taken to the court? What if the cheating was for 10 Lakhs rupees? I believe whether it is 100 Rs or 10 Lakhs cheating you should not take the Born Again Christian to the court. As long as the Born Again Christian is considered as a Tax Collector, the Christian who is the victim should give whatever the tax collector needs. It may be for the short duration or for the lifetime. I am not talking about the tax that we pay to our Country, I am talking about the real life examples of Cheating that is taking place in Christian communities.

Once someone gets the license saying he is a Born Again Christian, then he gets the license to practice we call it cheating, but the Born Again Christians call it the income to live as a Christian.

[DavidFilmer]

Is it contradictory to what Lord prayed in his prayer which we call it Lord's prayer? In that prayer Lord says "as we forgive our debtors".

You can forgive someone and not seek punishment against him for wrongdoing (which is mercy) but still expect the person to make restitution for the wrongdoing. (which is justice). God is BOTH merciful AND just, and we are to be the same. If someone steals from me, maybe I won't try to have him punished (thrown in jail, etc), but it's not punishment to expect the person to return what he took. Otherwise, the person profits from evil deeds, which offends justice.

If I steal money from someone, I would not expect to pray the first part of that passage from the Lord's Prayer ("forgive us our debts") and expect forgivness while the stolen money was still in my pocket! I should return the money, and then ask for forgivness from the sin.

But, jesusandyou, I wonder what you mean by this cheating that you say is taking place. Do you mean one individual Christian cheating another in some business matter? Such as taking a car to a Christian mechanic who overcharges you? Or do you mean false preachers who use religion to exploit money from the people?

[DavidFilmer]

Also, I wanted to inquire about the premise of the question:

Is it Christian if I sue another Born Again Christian...

Our conduct to others shouldn't depend on whether the person is a Christian or not. But, even so, I would tend to hold other Christians to higher standards. Why should I not take just action against a wrongdoer just because he is a Christian? Should I take an atheist to court for his crimes, but ignore the crimes of the Christian? If anything, I should be more leinent to the atheist. After all, the Christian ought to know better!

[Mary Liz]

There is another angle.
What of helping a follow Christian correct the error of his ways?
You are not being revengeful to seek restitution.  If this person has money that belongs to you; it should be returned.  
But people who cheat others should be ‘instructed’ with charity to correct their behavior.  If this person is using his Christianity as a front for cheating then others need to be warned as well.

[jesusandyou]

I am talking about the teachers of the Bible also. The number of listeners who become victims to their plot is greater than who become victims to any other Business tactics. For example the recent Gold Coin fraud happened in Florida which SEC is still investigating. The company collected investments from People by using the name of God. You see lot of these happening in the developed countries like the US, but it is sad when the people in India practice it.

Qn to Mary Liz. Do you think the person will correct his behavior if the victim files suit in court, when the offender did not have any kind of remorse when he was tried to contact and negotiate by the Victim?

Let me tell you a real incident recently published in a Christian Magazine. A well known pastor who traveled many states and is a popular speaker, was taken into custody by the Police while preaching in an Idaho Church. To the surprise of many it was found that there is more than one outstanding arrest warrant against him and he hasn't paid alimony for few years to his Children and wife. This is my opinion. They will never learn as long as the innocent Christians open their houses to them. They may learn if they spend few days in Jail. Still I doubt because they have the license to practice anything in the name of God.

[Rev. Eric]

This has been an interesting thread.  Here are a couple of insights that I offer.

First of all, Jesus' use of the terms debts in the Lord's Prayer is in the context of sins.  In Aramaic, the same word is used for both "debt" and "offense."  I have not really researched this deeply, but I suppose this is because if I sin against someone, it places me in his debt.  If I steal $3000 from someone, I owe him $3000 and I owe him an apology.  I may also have to do time in jail, because I would "owe a debt to society" in light of my crime.  So here we see how even modern English demonstrates a relationship between crime/offense/sin and debt.  

Next, let me comment on whether or not it is right to sue a fellow Christian who owes me money.  Please keep in mind that I am giving my personal opinion here.  As I have demonstrated above, the Lord's Prayer really concerns the forgiveness of sins and offenses rather than monetary debt.  Therefore it is not a violation of the Lord's Prayer to sue a person who, out of justice, owes me money.  As David pointed out:

You can forgive someone and not seek punishment against him for wrongdoing (which is mercy) but still expect the person to make restitution for the wrongdoing. (which is justice).

Now let me move on.  Even though I do not think it is wrong to sue someone over money that he justly owes me, the question remains as to whether or not I should go ahead with this plan.  I can see it both ways.

For example, let us say that a man named Joe borrowed $3000 from me and then refused to pay it back.  On one hand, I could forgive him this debt as an act of charity, and that would be a good thing.

But what if I were a family man with a wife and three children, and we were having financial trouble?  There are groceries to buy, bills to pay and school tuitions to take care of.  As a man who has a family to take care of, there may actually be a moral obligation for me to sue Joe and have the $3000 restored.

So I can see this argued both ways.  But I don't want to imply that it is only ok to sue if you happen to need the money.  If a person has a legal right to monetary restitution then he has a right to it.  It's his decision whether or not to sue.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[Melody]

What I don't agree with Melody is the liberal approach that she takes. If the Truth is unique, and the Bible has the ultimate truth, then it applies the same to all the Christians -- the Bible can't be wrong in one place and be right in another place. There is no individual case where the Truth applies differently. If you are a Christian and I am a Christian, it applies the same way -- both to you and me.

JesusandYou,

When I said “It's all a matter of individual cases really” I was referring to different CASES not different PEOPLE! I was in no way suggesting that the Bible should apply differently for you and for me!

The Rev. Eric explained this very well in his example of Joe:

“… the question remains as to whether or not I should go ahead with this plan. I can see it both ways.

For example, let us say that a man named Joe borrowed $3000 from me and then refused to pay it back. On one hand, I could forgive him this debt as an act of charity, and that would be a good thing.

But what if I were a family man with a wife and three children, and we were having financial trouble? There are groceries to buy, bills to pay and school tuitions to take care of. As a man who has a family to take care of, there may actually be a moral obligation for me to sue Joe and have the $3000 restored.

So I can see this argued both ways. But I don't want to imply that it is only ok to sue if you happen to need the money. If a person has a legal right to monetary restitution then he has a right to it. It's his decision whether or not to sue…”

Blessings,

Melody

[jesusandyou]

What if Joe is an anointed Born Again Christian?

[DavidFilmer]

What if Joe is an anointed Born Again Christian?

All the more reason why Joe should fulfill his moral obligations, and all the more reason why Joe should be held accountable if he does not.

[jesusandyou]

Take this case. An International Born Again Christian calling you from his home country and saying he needs $25,000 to do operation of his kid. By considering his need, you ask him to go to all of your brotherly Churches in the country where you live, speak and share his need. After the Born Again Christian visited all the Churches, he absconds from there with all the money without paying any of your expenses and without saying a word to you. After he leaves the country he uses unidentified hitman with name AVENGER to threaten to your family for asking your money. Then hacking your computer and sending pornography email from your email account. Calling your friends and relatives and threatening them about their "power". On top of that, publishing profanities on free websites like geocities.com and their websites about you and your wife. All these activities are with fraudulent names so that the Born Again Christian will not be caught. If you call him to talk to him about why he does it, he asks his Bodyguard to talk to you. The Bodyguard says if you go back to your home country, he will break your leg, kill you and dump you in a nearby sea.

Do you think you should sue that Born Again Christian for fraud? Or do you sue him for aggravated murder plot? Or do you think he should go to Jail?

[Rev. Eric]

Jesusandyou, the offender you are describing in your example is a criminal and should be treated as such.  If he is making death threats against people then this goes beyond a simple civil case of suing.  Rather, it should be treated as a criminal case (and therefore a matter for the police).  Furthermore, if this person is running scams, threatening and hurting people then society needs to be protected from him.  Therefore, there is nothing wrong for a Christian to assist in having this criminal prosecuted.

You have been describing this criminal as a "born again Christian" but I do not see how that should have a bearing upon how he should treat him in this case.  As a Catholic priest, my understanding of what it means to be "born again" is different from that of many others.  For me, it means being baptized, and baptized criminals are as legally culpable for their crimes as non-baptized.  

In terms of moral culpability, Christian criminals are more culpable than non-Christian (consider Luke 12:41-48).

Furthermore, although the criminal in your example may consider himself a born again Christian, from the Catholic viewpoint he is morally dead.  He is morally dead because he is living in a state of mortal sin (and here I am assuming that he knows what he is doing is seriously wrong, but he choses to do these things anyway).

For example, if I understand your example correctly, this man borrowed $25,000 without any intention of repaying it.  This is a scam, and that means theft.  Theft of large sums of money is a mortal sin.  But even if he borrowed a large sum of money on good faith and changed his mind later about paying it back, a willful failure to make restitution can also be a mortal sin.

Moreover, he is distributing pornography, which is a mortal sin.  And let us not forget the multiple death threats that he conveys through a hitman - also a mortal sin.

This "born again Christian" is walking the road to hell.  It may actually be a merciful thing for him to spend some time in jail so that he can seriously reflect upon his life and decide to change his ways.  In any event, while in jail he could not cheat, distribute pornography and threaten people.  As I mentioned before, society needs to be protected from his criminal activities.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[Matthias]

I agree 100% all with what RevEric is saying. This person should be in the jail!

But there is a part in the Bible that maybe seem to say we should let this person take the money and run. I am not thinking we should do that, but I am not really understanding this part of the Bible:

Now indeed it is a failure on your part that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather let yourselves be cheated?

This is from 1 CORINTHIANS 6:7. Is this meaning jesusandyou should not be thinking about this 25000$?

I am thinking this evil man should have that he return the money and go to the jail. But I want to know about what the Bible say.

[jesusandyou]

Before I go further let me leave you all with my final thoughts. You should never open your house to the so called Born Again Christians who claim they are doing miracles in the name of Jesus and say they are anointed. Their priority is money, women and power. Never become victims to their schemes. They have all kinds of escape root when it comes to prove their innocence. Leave the vengeance to the almighty. God is powerful than all our legal system. Your weapon is not legal action but prayer.

[Rev. Eric]

Leave the vengeance to the almighty.

I agree, Jesusandyou, but seeking what rightfully belongs to you and your family and helping bring a criminal to justice does not have to be an act of vengeance.  As I pointed out above, it could even be a moral obligation.

God is powerful than all our legal system. Your weapon is not legal action but prayer.

I agree that God is more powerful than our legal system, but God often uses people and the things within creation to work His justice.  That includes Christians both praying and working to right the wrongs of society.

And now let me comment on 1Cor 6:7 which Matthias has shared with us and invited us to comment on.

Now indeed it is a failure on your part that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather let yourselves be cheated?

I don't think that Paul meant this as a general statement, but rather he was criticizing the behavior and attitudes of the Corinthians at the time.  According to the Navarre Bible Commentary, the Corinthians...

...failed to understand and to apply what our Lord said in the Sermon on the Mount about bearing injuries (Mt 5:39-42).  Worse still, they have gone to law against each other in contravention of the standard set by those early Christians, who had one heart and one soul (cf. Acts 4:32).  And they have tried to solve their disagreements in pagan courts which know nothing of Christian brotherhood.

- Jose Maria Casciaro (ed.), The Navarre Bible: Corinthians (Dublin, Ireland: Four Courts Press, 1997), 78-79.

With this in mind, I get the impression that the Corinthians were refusing to resolve their differences in the spirit of a family, but rather ran to pagan strangers to settle their affairs.

It would be good, of course, if all Christians would act in the way Paul instructed, but settling things as a family requires both members to participate.  If one member refuses to participate, then legal recourse may be justified.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[jesusandyou]

One party is busy healing the masses in their healing programs "Bless the World". I heard that there is a lady who came to that program started hearing for the first time.

What I am saying is that if they know how to cheat you, then they wont settle though you given them plenty of chances. Because they know you don't have written contracts with them so that they don't need to pay.

In God's kingdom how many of you go for contracts with your fellow so called "born again" believers?