Praying to the Dead

[jesusandyou]

Is praying to the Dead biblical?

[Seeker]

I think you're referring to the idea in Catholicism that the saints in heaven can pray for us and that we can petition them to pray for us.

First of all, it is biblical that Christians are united in Christ as His brothers and sisters.  

It is also biblical that when our bodies die, that our souls do not die.  In fact we are very much alive in Christ.

It is also biblical to ask other Christians to pray for us.

Considering all these biblical ideas, I would say that yes, it is biblical to ask the saints in heaven, who are very much alive in Christ, to pray for us.

Is there an explicit example of a Christian asking another Christian in heaven to pray for them?  I haven't found one yet but, consider the following.

Consider Rev 5:8

Rev 5:8  And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Consider Rev 6:10

Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (Holy and True), dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Those in heaven can be aware of what is happening on earth and do bring our pleas and prayers before Christ.

Consider Rev 8:3-5:  

Rev 8:3  And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God.
 
Rev 8:4  And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.

Rev 8:5  And the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar and cast it on the earth: and there were thunders and voices and lightnings and a great earthquake.

The prayers of the saints are presented to God by an angel.

It's also important to remember that Catholics believe the saints hear our request not because of any power they have of their own, but through Christ and because we are uinited with them through Christ like the branches of the vine are united through the trunk.  This is the only way the saints in heaven can hear our request.

You might also want to see Rev Eric's post that covers the same topic.

I quote from his post here.

1) Christians are one in the body of Christ, as Paul tells us. That means that the saints in heaven are perfectly united with Christ. Therefore, a relationship with Christ experienced through a saint is not "long-distance."

2) Although it is not "long-distance", one could argue that using saints in one's spirituality is an "indirect" approach to God. But all Christians everywhere experience God in indirect ways (and hopefully direct ways as well). The only people who discover God in a direct way are certain rare visionaries. For the rest of us, we discover God through Christians and/or through the writings of those people who compiled the bible. These are indirect ways. Futhermore, even the visionaries I mentioned had to include indirect ways of experiencing God. For example, Paul had a direct encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, but Jesus then sent him to the members of His Church to teach him about the faith.

3) As a Catholic, I pray directly to God and I pray to saints. When praying to saints, I do the following:
a) I honor the power of Christ that worked so strongly in their lives. So by honoring the saints, I honor Christ.
b ) I honor the saint himself or herself, because he/she said "yes" to Christ in a very real and powerful way.
c) I recognize that the saint led a life of heroic virtue and, therefore, may be recognized as a Christian role model.
d) I ask the saint to pray to God on my behalf, just as a Protestant would aks his local pastor. The bible tells us to pray for one another, and that the prayers of the righteous are powerful in their effects (James 5:16). In that case, asking the saints to pray for me is the logical thing to do, for they are more righteous than anyone here on earth. And I know that I can communicate with the saints because we are one in the body of Christ, and Christ is the vine and we are the branches. The "vine" of Christ joins the Christians in heaven with Christians on earth. Prayer is not an act of worship in and of itself, but a supernatural telephone that allows us to communicate with those in heaven. Christ empowers them to hear our prayers. Plus, there is no time in heaven, so a saint cannot get bombarded with more messages than he can handle. He has all eternity to hear them and act upon them.
e) In Revelation, John saw saints and angels mediating prayers between people on earth and God in heaven (Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4).
f) Remember that even Jesus openly spoke to righteous people who were no longer on this earth. At His Transfiguration He spoke to Moses and Elijah, and He did this in front of some of the apostles.


The big question is, why bother asking the saints to pray for me? Why not ask God directly? (Of course, this implies that I will not ask anyone here on earth to pray for me either.) The idea is to pray to God and to ask the saints to pray for us as well. Why? Because we are supposed to be in a loving realtionship with one another, and do acts of loving charity for one another. When another Christian agrees to pray for me, it is an act of loving charity, and it strengthens the communal bond that we are all supposed to share. Praying to God while purposefully ignoring His children in heaven can be a rejection of this communal bond. Furthermore, it shows a lack of understanding of what it means to be one in the body of Christ. Heaven is like a big dinner party and Jesus is the Host. He wants us to mingle and interact with one another, because we are supposed to be in a loving Christian relationship with one another. Because we are one in the body of Christ, we can start this "mingling" here on earth.

Also, because the saints in heaven are more righteous than me, I believe that God will respond more favorably to my prayers if I enlist the aid of the saints. And I state that because of James 5:16. So while I send my prayers to God directly, I also invite lots of saints to join me.

So, I think that the Catholic concept of asking the saints in heaven to pray for us is biblical. In addition, the idea is nothing new.  There is historical evidence that Christians have been asking the saints in heaven to pray for them since the first century.

[jesusandyou]

You are talking about "Saints in Heaven". How do you know that the saints to whom you are praying are in Heaven. For example Mother Theresa. Is she in Heaven? She may be. She may not. You don't know. Only God and she know the truth. You have only confirmation from the Pope that she is blessed. Even Pope does not know she is in heaven.

Whats the qualification to become a saint? Can I become a saint one day?

[Seeker]

Can I become a saint one day?

Yes!  Hopefully all of us will!


I'll have to look it up to see what the process is to determine whether someone is one of the saints or not.  Maybe someone who knows can post.  Good questions.

[jesusandyou]

I am already married. Should I divorce my wife   to become a saint?

[Seeker]

How would that make you a saint?

[Melody]

I'll have to look it up to see what the process is to determine whether someone is one of the saints or not. Maybe someone who knows can post.

All of us are saints in the Church in the general use of the word. That is why St. Paul writes to the "saints" in the Church.

As for being properly beatitified, that's only done through the proper channels of the Catholic Church.

I am already married. Should I divorce my wife to become a saint?

Though you seem to have written this in sarcasm, I'll answer this nevertheless. I don't think you are aware of the multitude of married saints who have been beatified by the Catholic Church.

Don't divorce your wife. Just yourself. Die to yourself & let the Lord live in you. Then you too will be a saint, if not beatified, at least in spirit.

Blessings,

Melody

[jesusandyou]

Tell me the name of a married "saint" who was beautified. What did happen to his wife?

If all of us are sainsts, Melody, do you use a name like St.Melody ?

[Melody]

Tell me the name of a married "saint" who was beautified.

Offhand, there's St. Monica, the mother of St. Augustine - who is a doctor of the Catholic Church.

Will get some more for you if you want

As for St. Melody - that will come only if I'm beatified    - noticed I talked about the general use of the word & the beatified use - implying there's a difference!

Blessings,

Melody

[Seeker]

Recently, Saint Gianna Beretta Molla has been recognized.  She was a working mother that died in childbirth.

[Melody]

Maybe you could get your hands on this book "Married Saints and Blesseds
Through the Centuries" by Ferdinand Holbock

In Married Saints and Blesseds, Ferdinand Holbock tells inspiring stories of over 200 married saints and blesseds whose example is vital in living a truly Catholic married life. Catholics must realize that married couples are called to holiness as well as priests or religious.

Note, it has over 200 married saints & blesseds

Blessings,

Melody

[Seeker]

By the way, Saint Gianna's husband, Mr. Pietro Molla, is still alive.

More in Saint Gianna here.

[Rev. Eric]

Here is a case of a married couple who are both saints: St. Isidore the Farmer and his wife Santa Maria de la Cabeza.

The very purpose of married life is for a husband and wife to help one another to attain heaven.  After all, if you truly love someone, you desire the highest and greatest thing for that person.  The highest and greatest thing is heaven.  Rather than being something that distracts from holy living, marriage is supposed to support holy living.  That is the challenge and ideal that people are to strive for.

Mother Theresa. Is she in Heaven? She may be. She may not. You don't know. Only God and she know the truth. You have only confirmation from the Pope that she is blessed. Even Pope does not know she is in heaven.

It is through the canonization process that God reveals to His Church on earth that a person is in heaven.  For example, Padre Pio has completed the canonization process and is now referred to as St. Pio.  Why do we Catholics believe that he is in heaven?  Because God told us so, and He did this through His Church.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[DavidFilmer]

In the Bible, all believers are called "saints." This reflects our ultimate state should we persist in living the life of a believer.

But the Catholic Church endows upon certain people the special title "Saint." A minister (who identified himself as "catholic" - little "c" - not affiliated with Rome) once explained it to me like this:

We know that some people will attain sainthood upon their death (the Bible assures us of this). Some people may appear righteous, but maybe it was just an act (to impress people, etc) and they may actually be damned.  But there are some people whose lives were so extraordinarily holy that no reasonable person could doubt their sanctity.

Consider Mother Theresa (St. Theresa of Calcutta).  If, in fact, she were damned, then who could possibly enter heaven? We know her life thoroughly.  If God is truly Just and Merciful then could there be any possibility that this woman is not in heaven?

Because - I’ll tell you this – if Mother Theresa is damned, then I don’t stand a chance!

[jesusandyou]

Let me quote What DavidFilmer said:

that no reasonable person could doubt their sanctity

Who's this "reasonable person"? Is it done by asking all the people who lived or communicated with that person? Take the case of Mother Theresa. To my belief she was beautified by the Pope after confirming one miracle happed for a local person in Calcutta. But there is a lot of people in India who disagre with what she did. (See, I am not disrespecting Mother Theresa, but trying to understand the beautification process probably she might have opposed.)

[Seeker]

Jesusandyou,

I think the Church investigates as much of the "candidate's" life as possible to find out what they did and why as well as what effect they had on others.  For instance, did the person lead others to holiness or cause strife and fear.  The arguments against a candidate are certainly investigated, as well.  

My understanding is that there is a person on the commission's job who is known as the "Devil's Advocate."  Their job is to prove the person is NOT a saint.  In this way, the truth comes out.

In the case of Mother Teresa, if those who disagreed with her did so because they also disagree with Church teaching on things like artificial contraception, then that would not be a reason against her being a canonized saint.   If they made accusations against her holiness, you can be sure these accusations would have been investigated by the "Devil's Advocate."

[jesusandyou]

So, what I can understand is that someone who is raising the question agaist the possible saint should agree with the doctrine of the Church. That means the accuser should be a Catholic not non-Catholic. That makes the job easy.

The moral of the story is that the sainthood is decided by Devil’s Advocate  .

[DavidFilmer]

We're straying a little off-topic here (getting into the process of Canonization), but what the heck?

During the process of canonization, the Church will attempt to interview as many people as possible who had direct knowledge of the candidate (whether Catholic or not). But people who did not KNOW the candidate are not considered.  The Devil's Advocate is charged with finding anything which would preclude the person from being recognized as a Catholic Saint. Of course, this is from a Catholic perspective (we are not trying to recognize protestant saints).

If the Devil's Advocate finds anything against the candidate which cannot be answered (and this does happen), then the canonization cannot go forward. However, even if the Devil's Advocate can find nothing against the candidate, there may still not be enough evidence in favor to merit Canonization (this happens also).

[Rev. Eric]

To my belief she was beautified by the Pope after confirming one miracle happed for a local person in Calcutta. But there is a lot of people in India who disagre with what she did. (See, I am not disrespecting Mother Theresa, but trying to understand the beautification process probably she might have opposed.)

This is a good thing to point out and I have heard about this as well.  Yes, there are people suspicious of the reported miracle, but this is natural.  As we know from the gospels, there were always some who were suspicious of the miracles peformed by Christ, so it only makes sense that the miracles He performs through His saints will likewise be criticized.

This is not to say, however, that skepticism does not have its proper place.  The Church approaches reported miracles with what one could call a huge healthy dose of skepticism.  After all, many things reported to be miracles are hoaxes or have natural explanations.  This is why the Church has very strick guidelines and policies when it investigates reported miracles within the canonization process.

But even in the case of authentic miracles, there will always be doubters.  Like I said, it happened with Christ so it will happen with His saints.  In other words, I would be very surprised if there were not any skeptics and doubters regarding the miracle associated with Mother Teresa.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[geobeck]

Is praying to the Dead biblical?

[snapback]1139[/snapback]

I only pray to my Jesus!  He is the one who died for me and intercedes for me.  According to Paul, we who are in Christ are the saints, both living and dead.  If a person has not accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, He will say, "Not all who say to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven.   If St. Theresa had not followed Christ and Christ alone, then I would doubt her salvation.  We do not achieve salvation through works.

[Seeker]

Hi geobeck and welcome to the Community!  Hope to see more posts from you.

Just one comment.  

Jesus is our eternal intercessor before the throne of the Father but as members of the Body of Christ, I believe He also wants us to pray for (i.e., "intercede for") each other in His name.

God bless!

Hope to see you around here more often.

[Melody]

Hey geobeck,

I welcome you to the community as well

Do you ever ask other people to pray for you? Like your Pastor or friends who you feel are close to the Lord? If so, and if you really believe what you said about "According to Paul, we who are in Christ are the saints, both living and dead", then if you can ask a living saint to pray for you, you can ask a 'dead' saint to pray for you as well.

Note I put 'dead' in inverted commas as the 'dead' saints are actually more alive than us, being continually in His Presence. They also are more 'close' to our God than the holiest person on earth could possibly be.

And at the end of the day, when you ask a friend to pray for you, you're ultimately asking for prayers to Jesus (not to your friend!), hence similiarly when praying to saints, it's ultimately about going to Jesus (and not to the saint).

Blessings,

Melody

[trmichels]

We should not pray TO saints, but we can pray WITH them and ask them to pray FOR us.

We should not pray to Mary, for the same reason. We can pray TO Yahweh, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, but not ANY others.

T.R.