Are Adam and Eve in Heaven?

[DavidFilmer]

Sin came into the world by Adam and Eve. They were punished for their sin. The Bible does not tell us anything about their ultimate fate, and I don't think the Church has ever taken a position. If they repented and lived a righteous life, could they have been in the "bosom of Abraham" (their decendant)?  Could they have repented? If so, why are we still under the cloud of their sin? But, how could they have NOT repented, seeing the consequences of their sin? Is it even possible for someone before Abraham to be in Heaven?

[Melody]

Hey David,

Cute question  

I voted that they're in heaven, mainly because of my optimistic desire that everyone should be in heaven!

Wouldn't they have repented at some stage or the other of their 900 odd year lives? I certainly hope so! And I know that our beloved, ever forgiving, loving God would have run & welcomed them back...

As for:

Is it even possible for someone before Abraham to be in Heaven?

OF COURSE!!

(01) Gen 4: 4 "Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering."

(02) Gen 5: 24 "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."

(03) Gen 6: 8-9 "Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD... Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God"

& again Gen 6: 22 "Noah did everything just as God commanded him."

These are just three of the many before Abraham who probably walked in the way of the Lord, who kept His way & made it to heaven. Let's also remember Jesus died for all our sins - from the first Adam. Leads me to believe that people before Abraham also will be in heaven.

Blessings,

Melody

PS: Want to ask you something else about Adam & Eve, will post a new topic.

[Rev. Eric]

If so, why are we still under the cloud of their sin?

Salvation works in mysterious ways and it seems that sin does too.  Perhaps a better way of asking this question would be, "Why does God permit Original Sin?"  A basic way of answering that (as well as any question regarding why God permits bad things) is in order that a greater good can be rendered from it.  Furrthermore, the greater the challenges are in striving for a life of holiness, the greater the victory will be in the end when good conclusively triumphs over evil.

Is it even possible for someone before Abraham to be in Heaven?

That's a good theological question.  The Church teaches that all people are given sufficient grace by God to allow them to participate in His plan of salvation.  In light of this, I do not see why this would not apply to people of all times.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[Seeker]

I voted they are in Heaven.  I like to think that after having original justice and losing it, that they of all people would know what they have to gain by turnign back to God and repenting.  They of all people would have longed for the coming of our Savior, Jesus.  Guess we'll find the truth when we get to Heaven.

[Matthias]

If Adam and Eve had not done the sin, they would be living forever in Eden, yes? Is that not what the Bible say? Eden is a very nice place, but it is not as nice as heaven, yes? So Adam and Eve have two choice:

   1 - they can sin and not be in Eden but maybe being in heaven (if they repent).
   2 - they can obey God and being always in Eden but have NO POSSIBILITY of heaven.

I think it is better for them that they try choice #1 and do the repentance. But how can this be correct?  They are now doing better because they sin/repent than if they obey God and never sin at all?

This is not seeming correct.

[Melody]

They are now doing better because they sin/repent than if they obey God and never sin at all?

This is not seeming correct.

Yes you're right Matthias! This doesn't seem correct because it isn't!

If Adam & Eve had never sinned, they would have never left the Presence of God.

However they did sin. So they lost the Presence of God (for whatever period till they repented, assuming they repented). This loss of the Presence of God (even if the regained it with repentance) will definetely have affected them. I can't even imagine what it must have felt like to walk with God daily, name all the species on earth etc & then one day just be cut off from Him.

Rest assured, even if they repented (& hopefully they did) they would not be 'doing better' than if they never sinned at all.

However, it will be all "forgiven & forgotten" & they would be enjoying the Presence of the Lord again.

Another way of looking at this is - Forgiviness doesn't make sense! God's love is never comprehensible to our human minds. And I praise God that He's the one judging us & not us

Blessings,

Melody

[Matthias]

Hallo Melody.

If Adam & Eve had never sinned, they would have never left the Presence of God.

This is in reverse than I have always understood it. In Eden Adam and Eve were not always in the presence of God - God visit them every once in a while - but God was not always being there (where was God when they were hearing the snake? And after they did this thing, they were hiding from God, yes? If they were ALWAYS in the presence of God they could not ever hide, yes?)

But in heaven there is something - I cannot remember the exact word - something like "beautious vision" (that is not the word, but it is close - you know what I am trying to say with this word?). I think this is a Catholic word but many Protestants also are beleiving in this. The word mean that every body in Heaven is always being in the presence of God (the angels also).

So I am thinking what you say is in reverse of this.

I can't even imagine what it must have felt like to walk with God daily

Actual are we not being better off now (if we are saved) than if we take a walk next to God? Is not God actual inside us, and is this not better, yes? Maybe someone could say that the earth is not pretty like Eden but we are being BETTER OFF than Adam and Eve because we have God inside of us instead of taking a walk next to us, yes?

[DavidFilmer]

Hello, Matthias.

The word you were looking for is "Beatific" (it is a strange word). You are correct about the theology of the term. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines "Beatific Vision" thus:

The immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven. It is called "vision" to distinguish it from the mediate knowledge of God which the human mind may attain in the present life. And since in beholding God face to face the created intelligence finds perfect happiness, the vision is termed "beatific".

I believe that theologians have wrestled with this question before. Had man not fallen then the Incarnation would not have been necessary, and mankind's opportunity to experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit would have not been possible, nor would he have an opportunity to experience the beatific vision of heaven.

So is mankind better off (in the long run) because Adam and Eve sinned? To profit from sin is contrary to justice, but one could argue that mankind has ultimately profited from sin.

As I say, I believe I've seen this question before, but I don't recall seeing any resonable answer to it. And I will admit to being stumped, and I don't have time to research it right now. Anyone wanna give this a shot?