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vivshaun
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« on: December 11, 2004, 12:24:28 AM »

Hi ...


would like to know how the church views on the consumpution of alcohol.... i mean is it a SIN ......

i thought it wasn't until i had attended a reatreat .... but still most of the parishoners think it is not ..............

would seeker - rev eric be kind enuf to xplain.

thanks
vivian  huh

p.s. : am i asking 2many questions here... apologise if this is bothering... and thanks 4 ur efforts.
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Seeker
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2004, 10:15:50 AM »

Vivian,

Please continue asking quesions.  That's what this community is about.  I've personally learned a lot from seeing the answers to your questions.  For that I thank you.

I know Rev Eric can shed greater insight into your question.  But here is what I found in the Catechism.  See this link.


Alcohol consumption isn't a sin, but can be an occassion of sin, meaning that if we consume it to the point that we let down our moral guard, then we can more easily be lead into sin.  Moderation is the key.

One more point, when I was in college, I drank alcohol just to get drunk.  This is an abuse of alcohol that I believe to be a sin.  Drinking alcohol itself isn't a sin, but the reason for drinking it could be, in my opinion.  I hope this makes sense.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 12:11:26 PM by Seeker » Logged

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-If you continue in my word... you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. Jn 8:31-32
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vivshaun
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2004, 11:05:33 PM »

Praise the Lord
Hi

Thanks 'Seeker' 4 ur efforts in trying 2 get rid of all my doubts. i do have a lot of Q and will raise them in time. I am glad i joined this community where i can get an opportunity 2 clarify some of my doubts and 'SEEK' the right answers.

Coming 2 the topic of alcohol, i personally use 2 have a peg or 2 a day just 2 get some sleep, i have trouble sleeping at nights..... (be awake for the greater part of the night and early morning get some sleep when its time 2 actually wake up). but of course these pegs would be manifested much more during feast days when one has parties like xmas, easter bdays ..... and would sure go out of hand.
Now that its almost a year since i stopped I feel i mst have made a fool out of myself during those times...

[I]DURING MY RETREAT AT POTA I CAME ACROSS PEOPLE WHO WERE ALL 4 CHRIST BUT WHEN CAME 2 ALCOHOL CONSUMPTION SAID THEY WOULD NOT STOP IT SINCE ITS A MATTER OF PRESTIGE TO TAKE OUT THE BEST OF SPIRITS DURING THE FEAST DAYS AND THAT WOULD INCLUDE AFTER THE FUNERALS TOO AND HOW THE NEIGHBOURS WOULD VIEW THEM IF THE SPIRITS WERE NOT SERVED.....[/I]

i surely would like 2 c more views and comments on the above.. specially from Rev Eric & Melody and ofcourse Seeker who tries very hard to satisfy my queries asap. thanks 4 this seeker.

God Bless
Vivian rolleyes
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« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2004, 08:06:58 AM »

My pleasure Vivian.  

By the way, if your life (especially spiritually) has improved since giving up alcohol, then it sounds like a blessing for you to stay away from it.  

I too would like to see other comments on this.  

God bless. Smiley
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Rev. Eric
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« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2004, 09:38:07 PM »

Hello Vivian,

I think Seeker has provided you with some excellent information on this subject.  I'll just throw some things into the discussion.

The act of drinking alcoholic beverages is not, in and of itself, sinful.

For example, the Psalmist says that wine gladdens the hearts of people (Ps 104:14-15).

From the Prophet Isaiah we read, "Ho, come everyone who thrists, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat!  Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price" (Is 55:1, RSV).

And, of course, wine is one of the gifts we bring to Mass.

Alcohol can also be used for medicinal purposes.  St. Paul told Timothy, "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments" (1Tim 5:23, RSV).

Nevertheless, as Seeker has been pointed out, there is a problem with over consumption.

"And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery..." (Eph 5:18).

Over indulging in alcohol leads to health problems; it is bad for one's health, and a drunk person can be a danger to others.  Furthermore, as Seeker mentioned, it lowers one's moral guards and inhibitions, which often leads to trouble (drunken brawls, fornication, fatal car accidents, murder, negligence of responsibilities, getting fired from one's job, etc.).

When a person over indulges in something that is harmful, he succumbs to the vice of gluttony.  Generally speaking, when a person freely chooses to indulge in one of the vices (gluttony, lust, anger, etc.), he commits a sin (assuming that he also had sufficient knowledge of the sinfulness of the situation).  Even though being drunk lessens someone's freedom, we have to keep in mind that he was sober when he made the choice to get drunk in the first place.

The key is to practice moderation when drinking to avoid sin and to avoid cultivating drinking problems.  Of course, those with drinking problems and alcoholism should practice abstinence.

On a side note, Vivian, you are not asking too many questions.  God bless you for wanting to broaden your understanding of matters of faith!  I only wish I had more time to devote to the Glorify God Community, but, as you can see, there are other members who are able to provide great answers.   Smiley

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

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Melody
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2004, 06:35:59 AM »

Hello Hello Smiley

My views are not the "Traditional" Catholic views wrt alcohol consumption. This is probably because the past 8 years of my life have been very retreat center oriented (2 of them being spent full-time in one!).

Alcohol consumption, even in ‘moderation’ can be a sin for some people.

This would be true where people do not get totally drunk, but the alcohol they consume "frees" them to
* loosen their tongues and abuse their family
* gossip
* physically / mentally / emotionally hurt ppl
* physically / mentally / emotionally hurt themselves

(I won't go on, you know the many evil effects of Alcohol - and the fact that one needn't be drunk to a point of stupor to manifest these effects)

But what about the person who is completely able to control his alcohol consumption? Who perhaps has just a peg a day or even a week or maybe just at social events.. does that make it a sin?

NO, absolutely not. It is not a sin.

But let me ask some questions here:
* Does this person who controls his alcohol consumption right now, know for a FACT that he will be able to do so in 5 or 10 years?

Most Alcoholics did not start out that way. They started out as people who could control themselves. All of them will swear to the fact that they did not expect to turn out alcoholic.

The problem is that the more alcohol one consumes, the more it takes to satisfy one’s urge. Thus if one is used to drinking say two pegs every night, one peg is not going to do the drink. And one might even tend towards a third eventually.

On the other hand, with age, one’s body is less able to handle the same amounts of quantity one could earlier. A guy may, for example, have been able to drink 3 bottles of beer while in college, with absolutely no problems. Whereas now, as a middle aged man, it would probably be enough to put him over the edge.

On a personal note - I unfortunately have the uncanny ability to see potential future alcoholics. It is true that one can see the errors of his ways & reform/cut down before it turns hazardous. But it is also true that this does not often happen. Maybe it does with few who have attended retreats like our brother Vivian.

I do not know a single Catholic who does not have an alcoholic in the extended family. Hindi movies here in India always portray the alcoholic to be a “D’Souza” or “Fernandes” or to be from “Goa”.

Talk to an alcoholic Catholic about this & chances are that he who probably never reads the Bible will tell you that “Jesus turned water into wine”.  


* Does this person know for a FACT that his drinking alcohol is not causing anyone to sin.

(Rev. Eric, please pardon me, what I say following does not hold any disrespect to you). I know many priests who regularly consume alcohol, some even more than they can handle. Many people justify there alcohol consumption on the fact that “even the priest is drinking”. The same holds for people “in the Lord”, prayer group leaders, preachers etc.

Causing people to sin by our careless attitude is also a sin, for which we will be paid: ”And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.” (Mark 9:42)

St. Paul talks about this in his letter to the Corinthians: “ 9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.”(1 Cor Cool

St. Paul is talking about eating food offered to idols in the above passage, but definitely the same message applies to alcohol. If the “exercise of your freedom” becomes “a stumbling block to the weak” are we not liable?

St. Paul was willing to give up meat! – a big source of most of our diet – completely (“I will never again”), to as to ensure that his brother would not sin. Yet so many are unwilling to give up alcohol just because they do not presently have any problems with it.

I know a man who had a son. The man could control his drinking, the son couldn’t. There were times before the son’s problem manifested itself that the man himself offered alcohol to his son at parties etc. Eventually the man gave up alcohol; to be a “good example” to his son… it was too late. Sounds gory, but true. And worse still, not the only example of its kind.

What message are we giving to our kids when it comes to alcohol…? It’s ok to be totally drunk as long as you’re not driving? Our actions always speak louder than our words. And people are always watching what we do, more than listening to what we say.

Effective evangelization DEFINETELY calls for dying to self in this area, even if no problem is manifested right now.

On a personal note – I have never touched a drop of alcohol in my life! My mum was very strict with us (my sister & me) when we were growing up. We were taught to “just say no” – pretty much like the drug concept. As a result today I never miss that what I’ve never known. I can totally enjoy myself at parties, I used to even club a lot & never even felt tempted to drink alcohol… “Proverbs 22:6 Train [a] a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.”

The best way of leading/training is again, by example. It would have been very hard for my mother to convince us, if she herself was not a teetotaler.
I could go on – this is rather a pet topic, am very against alcohol, have seen evil become more and more apparent with every consecutive glass drunk but I’ll end my rather long story here.

I would summarise as such:

(01) If you’re drinking alcohol, it doesn’t mean you’re sinning – both Seeker & Rev. Eric have correctly brought this out by their posts.

BUT

(02) It also doesn’t mean that if you continue this way that you will continue not sinning. Studies prove the opposite is true.

(03) Hence it is better to quit completely

(04) It is also imperative that we, who bear the name of Christ, who call ourselves ‘Christians’, should bear witness to the world in our clean living.


I know that my views are rather fundamentalist and not even all the “good” people I know think likewise, but to quote Fr. Mathew E. “I have seen tens of thousands of families completely destroyed by alcohol. I have not even seen one who is the better from it.”

Blessings,

Melody
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vivshaun
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2004, 11:16:07 PM »

Praise the Lord

Wow Melody u DO WRITE'. i really had to catch my breath after reading what u have written, i could really c the concern behind what u have written... thanks for that .. much obliged.

vivian

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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2004, 11:32:45 PM »

I see the truth in your words, Melody.  Especially about setting a good example.
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-If you continue in my word... you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. Jn 8:31-32
-For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds... Mt 7:8; Lk 11:10
Rohan
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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2005, 03:22:38 AM »

Dear All,

Was just going through a few older topics and came across this one.

A friend of mine who also has made the  retreats ( Tabor and Potta) once asked me ." Isnt it weird that Mass is said with alcoholic wine  and it is preached at these centres that alcohol shouldnt be touched ,even one drop by the laity. How do you justify this ? "I didnt have a clear answer.

Again one for the reverend priests in our group. Obviously pringles and pepsi ( to give a ridiculous example) cannot be consecrated so are there fixed norms for the bread and wine ??and is the wine specified as alcoholic wine ?? Can any alternates be used. What about alcoholic priests who want to get well ? What  do they use?

A question for Melody. How do the priests in the retreat centres justify the alcohol in the wine that they consecrate ( if two masses are said a day it constitutes 2 pegs or so i guess) or do they use substitutes ?

What about serving liquor even if you dont personally drink?In most places for parties ,weddings etc people expect to have a drink.

Praise God
Rohan



Praise God
Rohan
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