Allah is not god (Yahweh Sabaoth)

[trmichels]

This might be contentious, but it has to be said.

Mohammed wrote the Qu'ran to "correct" what he percieved was wrong with the Bible. That goes against everything Christians believe about the Bible; it is complete and sdchould not be addedto. Therefore the Qu'ran contains false doctrine (to Christians); and it is not from Yahweh Sabaoth.

Moslems don't believe Jesus is God, therefore they don't believe in the Holy Trinity. Therefore Allah is not the same being as Yahweh Sabaoth. Because there is no God but Yahweh Sabaoth, Allah is not even a god, and can only be a described as a pagan god.

It's time Christians knew the truth, and stood up for their Christian beliefs of one God. We do not need to be "religiously correct".

We can be tolerant or other beliefs, but not accept them, we should pray for Muslms and try to convert them (if we are true Chritians). It is what Jesus would want.



Who is Allah?

Is the Islamic Allah the same as the Judeo-Christian el, elohi or Yahweh? Here is some background on the origins of Allah.


This is from the website at http://www.bartleby.com/65/al/Allah.html.

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.

Allah

( l´ , ä´l ) (KEY) , [Arab.,=the God]. Derived from an old Semitic root refering to the Divine and used in the Canaanite El, the Mesopotamian ilu, and the biblical Elohim, the word Allah is used by all Arabic-speaking Muslims, Christians, Jews, and others. Allah, as a deity, was probably known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Arabic chronicles suggest a pre-Islamic recognition of Allah as a supreme God, with the three goddesses al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat as his “daughters.” The Prophet Muhammad, declaring Allah the God of Abraham, demanded a return to a strict monotheism. Islam supplements Allah as the name of God with the 99 most beautiful names (asma Allah al-husna), understood as nondescriptive mnemonic guides to the Divine attributes.

(See S. Friedlander, Ninety-Nine Names of Allah (1978).)

This is from the website at http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm.

In Old Testament times, Nabonidus (555-539 BC), the last king of Babylon, built Tayma, Arabia as a center of Moon-god worship. Segall stated, "South Arabia's stellar religion has always been dominated by the Moon-god in various variations." Many scholars have also noticed that the Moon-god's name "Sin" is a part of such Arabic words as "Sinai," the "wilderness of Sin," etc. When the popularity of the Moon-god waned elsewhere, the Arabs remained true to their conviction that the Moon-god was the greatest of all gods. While they worshipped 360 gods at the Kabah in Mecca, the Moon-god was the chief deity. Mecca was in fact built as a shrine for the Moon-god.

This is what made it the most sacred site of Arabian paganism. In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidha, that she had uncovered a temple of the Moon-god in southern Arabia. The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than twenty-one inscriptions with the name Sin were found in this temple. An idol which may be the Moon-god himself was also discovered. This was later confirmed by other well-known archeologists.

The evidence reveals that the temple of the Moon-god was active even in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrate that Moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult. According to numerous inscriptions, while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al-ilah, i.e. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods. As Coon pointed out, "The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." The Moon-god was called al-ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times. The pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave to their children. For example, both Muhammad's father and uncle had Allah as part of their names.

Allah is the pagan Moon-god.

May Yahweh bless and show all humans his truth, not our own truth, not someone else's truth,

T.R.

[Seeker]

Welcome back friend!  I pray that all is well with you and your family.

Moslems don't believe Jesus is God, therefore they don't believe in the Holy Trinity. Therefore Allah is not the same being as Yahweh Sabaoth. Because there is no God but Yahweh Sabaoth, Allah is not even a god, and can only be a described as a pagan god.

You make a good argument for Allah not being the same as God (i.e., Yahweh Sabaoth).  Certainly, the Muslim understanding of who and what God is fundamentally different than the Christian understanding.

How would you reply to someone who might use the same reasoning to show that Christians don't worship the same Yahweh Sabaoth the Jews of the Old Testament did since the Jews never believed (still don't) in a Trinitarian God?

Just playing "devil's advocate" to help prepare us for possible responses.

We can be tolerant or other beliefs, but not accept them, we should pray for Muslms and try to convert them (if we are true Chritians). It is what Jesus would want.

I totally agree brother.  We can't be afraid to speak the truth with love.

[Melody]

The Prophet Muhammad, declaring Allah the God of Abraham

Well if he's the God of Abraham, doesn't he become our God?

Wondering out aloud here...

Blessings,

Melody

PS: Welcome back T.R. from me too

[Melody]

How would you reply to someone who might use the same reasoning to show that Christians don't worship the same Yahweh Sabaoth the Jews of the Old Testament did since the Jews never believed (still don't) in a Trinitarian God?

Good question Seeker

What I understand is that we all believe in the Father.... Who is God by Himself as well as God as part of the Holy Trinity. So in that respect alone we do believe in the same God. Not sure that this will convince anyone though  

Interested to hear if any others have views on this...

Blessings,

Melody

[royston]

My two pence in this connection is a quote. Don't know where exactly I have heard it before. It goes "There are elements of truth in all religions; but the fullness of truth is only in Jesus Christ". Does this make any sense in the light of the above posts?

Royston

[Seeker]

Makes sense to me Royston.

[gigi]

I  don't know much about the muslams nor do I pretend to and I'm not here to bash anyones religious beliefs (only to share the WORD)  but if this is true as T.R says

Mohammed wrote the Qu'ran to "correct" what he percieved was wrong with the Bible

than I think we should all pray for him because the WORD IS GOD  as the scriptures says in John 1
 

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

and who in their right mind would EVER think they could change God?? [/b]

it's also sad that anyone could deny the Holy Spirit because He was sent by the Father  and the scriptures also warn us

Mark 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

 and if anyone says that the Spirit is not God (or Jesus for that matter) is that not blasphemy??  [/b]

[Melody]

I think we should all pray for him

Don't know that we can pray for Mohammed?? But definetely we can (& should) pray for our Muslim brothers & sisters.

Blessings,

Melody

[Frank4YAHWEH]

It is not only Muslims who believe that "Jesus" is not "God" (Yahweh Sabaoth), many of the Christian religion and other religions believe this also. I for one am one who does not espouse to the doctrines "Jesus is God" and "Holy Trinity". Nowhere in Scripture are these doctrines taught. You will not find anyone teaching a "Holy Trinity" doctrine in Scripture, nor will you find anyone saying "Jesus is God" or the Messiah himself saying "I am God". I also do not believe that Father Yahweh's son Yahshua pre-existed, was a co-creator or co-existed with Father Yahweh. There is no mention in Scripture of a "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" as seperate beings or persons. These doctrines simply are not taught in any so called "Holy Bible" translation.

Father Yahweh's Teaching (Torah, Law)
http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm

The "Holy Spirit" Is An It
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/HolySpirtAnIt.html

Father Yahweh Is Not His Son Yahshua Whom He Anointed, Appointed As King To Reign For 1,000 Years And Raised From The Dead.
http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm

The Diverse Trinity Doctrines Are Not The Teachings Of Father Yahweh!
They are the teachings and "private interpretations" of mere men that are not under the inspiration of Father Yahweh.

KNOWING THIS FIRST, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Kepha [Peter] 1:20).

Diverse Trinity Teachings
http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/YAHWEHFrank/TrinityLinks.html

[mario]

Trimichels: Allah is not a pagan God. Allah in Arabic literally mean God in English.  Paganism is worshiping and  in believing in many Gods, a good example for Pagan religion would be Hinduism or Roman gods. Muslims believe in only one God  therefore Allah is not a Pagan God.
Also the prophet Muhammad did not write the Quran( Prophet Muhammad did not know how to read and write).  The Muslims believe he was a messenger of God, that god sent his message through angel Gabriel and then  Muhammad and his followers memorized the word of God and passed it down through the ages. All Muslims (it doesn't matter whether they know Arabic or not) recite their prayers in Arabic( translation is strictly forbidden and there is a certain phonetic style in which the prayers have to be recited) ,the reason being that if translation was allowed  things might be misinterpreted and changes could occur in the Gods message.  Quran was written in a much later time after the Prophet Muhammad's death. 

Also Muslims recognize Jesus Christ as a Prophet( Muslims also believe he was the only prophet to be conceived by  divine intervention). Jesus Christ during his life time mentioned that after his death, a Paraclete would come to guide us in another age.
"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you into the age (to come)."

John 14:16   For us Catholics we believe that the Paraclete was the Holy spirit that Jesus was talking about. The Muslims on the other hand believe the Paraclete was Prophet Muhammad that Jesus was talking about(also Prophet Muhammad did not perform any miracles so false Prophet argument cannot be used in Prophet Muhammad's case) .  The  Paraclete confusion doesn't mean the Muslims have to negate the teachings of Jesus in the bible, and it doesn't say in  the Quran that the Bible should be disregarded. Also, Muslims like Christians( and also Jews) believe of a judgment day, When Jesus(Messiah) would come back (yes the Muslims also believe only Jesus would come back) and Judge the leaving and the dead . During this judgment time Muslims believe that Jesus would tell the Christians that the Paraclete he was talking about was Prophet Muhammad and not the Holy spirit.

Paganism was widely practiced in the Arabian peninsula before the onset of Islam.  There was heavy resistance by the pagan worshipers for what prophet Muhammad had to say, therefore it wouldn't make any sense to say Islam is a Pagan religion.

It's time Christians knew the truth, and stood up for their Christian beliefs of one God. We do not need to be "religiously correct".

We can be tolerant or other beliefs, but not accept them, we should pray for Muslims and try to convert them (if we are true Christians). It is what Jesus would want.

Lastly I do not know where you got the idea that Jesus wants to convert non Christians into Christians.  Jesus wants us to love thy neighbor, as in  help our neighbors( doesn't matter whether they are Christian, Muslim or Hindu) when they are in need.  For example Mother Theresa and all the saints that came  before us did not go out  converting people.  Mother Theresa and all the saints went to help out thy neighbor. All catholic educational institutes , hospitals are built for the sole purpose of betterment of society and  not to convert people. Once people see you following in the example of Jesus and helping out your neighbor, people will follow your example and convert out of their own will.  It's not our job to convert people, our job is to follow the example of Jesus Christ and lead his way.  There are priests and nuns who have put themselves in great danger to help out non Christians and were persecuted and killed , the truth is they  were not converting people but rather helping these people in difficult times, but the excuse used for persecution was that the priests and nuns were converting non Christians.  And also what are you asking us to  pray for? to convert them.  I'd rather pray to God to help out our Muslim brother and sisters get through the difficulty they are facing in Sudan rather than ask God to convert them into Christians.  Your are getting away from the real  message Jesus Christ gave us and are trying to play the number game(that is which religion as the most converts).  Jesus message is not a NY stock market P/E ratio.

Seeker: The Jews  believe the messiah has yet to come and therefore do not accept Jesus as son of God( we has Christians accept Jesus Christ as the messiah and are waiting for his second coming) .  Jews believe the messiah is going to come on judgment day. To sum it up, all the Abrahamic religions( Judaism, Christianity, Islam) believe the messiah will show up on judgment day to judge the leaving and the dead.

Finally, All Abrahamic religions believe in the father(God)( ( The Father(God) is  the only thread that ties   Abrahamic religions together).  The Christan's believe in the Holy spirit( Jews and Muslims don't) and that Jesus was conceived by the Holy spirit.  Jesus was the son of God this is the easiest to explain because to relate to human beings God had to take a human form therefore he sent his own son for the mankind. As far scriptures are concerned, on last minutes of his death Jesus called out Father and asked to forgive us , so doesn't that make him the son.

Frank4YAHWEH: Also yes the holy spirit is present in the Scriptures "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you into the age (to come)."

John 14:16 it,s just that Islam has this message interpreted differently.

Lastly the holy trinity is the Father, Son and the holy spirit.  How does the holy trinity work we has human beings do not know, even the pope does not know. Its one of the mysteries and for Catholics it is the act of faith.  There are Three who were present in the beginning: The Father, Jesus The Son, and The Holy Spirit; and These Three are One God. (1 John 5:7)

A Hasidic Jew once told me the reason God created us with so many differences( race, religion, nationality, ethnicity, opinions) is so that he can test us.  To see that if we are able to respect our neighbors differences and give him a helping hand when he is in need or the other way around make use of the differences as an excuse and not help thy neighbor. As far has which Abrahamic religion is right? why did God create three religions if we are worshipping the same God ?I do not know the answers to that,No one knows what Gods  plans are . All of us have to wait for the judgment day to find out. .

Edited for format only (Seeker). 4/21/06

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Well, Like I said, There is no doctrine in the Scripture about a "Holy Trinity". This is simply a doctrine of mere men and a private interpretation of which no prophecy of Scripture is to be.

Father Yahweh's Teaching (Torah, Law)
http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm

The "Holy Spirit" Is An It
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/HolySpirtAnIt.html

Father Yahweh Is Not His Son Yahshua Whom He Anointed, Appointed As King To Reign For 1,000 Years And Raised From The Dead.
http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm

The Diverse Trinity Doctrines Are Not The Teachings Of Father Yahweh!
They are the teachings and "private interpretations" of mere men that are not under the inspiration of Father Yahweh.

KNOWING THIS FIRST, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Kepha [Peter] 1:20).

Diverse Trinity Teachings
http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/YAHWEHFrank/TrinityLinks.html

[Seeker]

Frank4YAHWEH,

What criteria are you using to come to your conclusion that "[t]here is no doctrine in the Scriptures about a 'Holy Trinity'." ?

For example, are you looking for the words "Holy Trinity" or are you claiming that Scripture does not testify to the unity of the divine persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one God?

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Frank4YAHWEH,

What criteria are you using to come to your conclusion that " ... there is no doctrine in the Scriptures about a 'Holy Trinity'." ?

For example, are you looking for the words "Holy Trinity" or are you claiming that Scripture does not testify to the unity of the divine persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one God?

The Scripture does not teach anything about a "unity of the divine persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one God?


The criteria that I use to come to the conclusion that there is no doctrine in the Scripture about a 'Holy Trinity' is the Scriptures themselves. Nowhere in Scripture will you find any mention of a 'Holy Trinity' doctrine taught or attempted to be explained in any way. The words 'Holy Trinity' simply are not sound words from Father Yahweh. One must twist (wrest) Father Yahweh's word to come up with such a doctrine. This is but a mere doctrine formulated by mere men that are uninspired by Father Yahweh. The Scripture themselves plainly teach that if anyone comes to you teaching any other doctrine than what is taught in the Scripture, that person and their teaching you are to ignore.

1 Timothy 1:7-11 - From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law [is] righteous, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the unrighteous and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;  According to the glorious glad tidings of Yahweh, which was committed to my trust. 

Now, as to a unity between Father Yahweh and his son Yahshua, this I do believe, but this unity consist of much more than a 'twinity', a  'trinity', or a 'quadrinity' as some espouse to (a unity of two, three, four, or etc.). I have yet to meet anyone who can ascertain the number of this unity. Note that when Yahshua was on earth he communicated (prayed) to Father Yahweh Who was in heaven his disire that the men that Father Yahweh gave him from the earth also be one in unity even as they were one in unity.

Yahchanan [John] 17:7-26  Now they have known that all things whatsoever You have given me are of You.  For I have given unto them the words which You gave me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from You, and they have believed that You did send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which You have given me; for they are Yours.  And all mine are Yours, and Yours are mine; and I am esteemed in them.  And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your own Name those whom You have given me, that they may be one, as we [are].  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your Name: those that You gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.  And now come I to You; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.  I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.  I pray not that You should take them out of the world, but that You shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Keep them seperate ("Holy, Sanctified") through Your truth: Your word is truth.  As You have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.  And for their sakes I seperate (sanctify) myself, that they also might be seperate (sanctified) through Your truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as You, Father, [art] in me, and I in You, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that You have sent me. And the esteem which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:  I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them, as You have loved me. I will that they also, whom You have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my esteem, which You have given me: for You loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world has not known You: but I have known You, and these have known that You have sent me. And I have declared unto them Your Name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith You have loved me may be in them, and I in them. 


Coming to a proper understanding of this unity one can readly see that this unity consist of more than two or three, or even four as some espouse to. We also can become as one in unity with Father Yahweh and His son Yahshua. Note also that it was Yahshua's disire that these and others after them be made seperate or set apart ("Holy, Santified").

There are diverse so called 'Holy Trinity' doctrines which I have seen explained in diverse manner throughout my lifetime. Many get to the point in explaining their so called 'Holy Trinity' doctrines in saying that it is a mystery, because they themselves end up confused in trying to explain it to someone. Noone in Scripture has every tryed to explain a doctrine of a 'Holy Trinity, so why even attempt to explain such a false dotrine such as this? Many explain Father Yahweh's set apart ("Holy") spirit as a seperate person. This I do not believe! I believe that Father Yahweh's spirit is His word. It is His creative power or breathe. Father Yahweh's spirit is not a seperate person or deity apart from Himself. As the popular hymn teaches "God in three persons, blessed Trinity." This is dung! I have studied the diverse so called 'Holy Trinity' doctrines extensively throughout my lifetime and have found no Scriptural backing for any of them. In fact, I was baptised into a Christian religion that taught a "Holy Trinity" at the age of 12 and never did come to believe it.

Father Yahweh's Teaching (Torah, Law)
http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm

The "Holy Spirit" Is An It
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/HolySpirtAnIt.html

Father Yahweh Is Not His Son Yahshua Whom He Anointed, Appointed As King To Reign For 1,000 Years And Raised From The Dead.
http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm

The Diverse Trinity Doctrines Are Not The Teachings Of Father Yahweh!
They are the teachings and "private interpretations" of mere men that are not under the inspiration of Father Yahweh.

KNOWING THIS FIRST, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Kepha [Peter] 1:20).

Diverse Trinity Teachings
http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/YAHWEHFrank/TrinityLinks.html

[Seeker]

The criteria that I use to come to the conclusion that there is no doctrine in the Scripture about a 'Holy Trinity' is the Scriptures themselves. Nowhere in Scripture will you find any mention of a 'Holy Trinity' doctrine taught or attempted to be explained in any way. The words 'Holy Trinity' simply are not sound words from Father Yahweh.

But there are others who do see the Holy Trinity in Scriptures, including many who claim to use the Scriptures as their sole rule of faith.  How can you be sure that you're interpretation is the correct one?

Father Yahweh's spirit is not a seperate person or deity apart from Himself.

But that isn't true. Scripture does speak of the Holy Spirit as a separate person (not as a separate deity).  Sounds like you've researched this topic yourself, so you've probably heard all the counter arguments to your viewpoint.  It may come down to a difference in Scriptural interpretation.  Still, it might be useful to discuss this further. 

This thread is getting off topic, so I suggest you start a new thread in the Apologetics section if you want to discuss a view of the Holy Spirit that is contrary to Catholic teaching with other members.