Does God like Catholic Prayers ?

[Ayodhya Nath Bhat]

Catholic Prayer

"Prayer cannot be reduced to the spontaneous outpouring of interior impulse: in order to pray, one must have the will to pray. Nor is it enough to know what the Scriptures reveal about prayer: one must also learn how to pray. Through a living transmission (Sacred Tradition) within 'the believing and praying Church,' the Holy Spirit teaches the children how to pray."  

This Catechism quote makes two remarkably controversial statements. Let's look at each. First:

"Prayer cannot be reduced to the spontaneous outpouring of interior impulse:"  

According to the Bible, it can! God's Word contains thousands of examples of spontaneous outpourings... and God heard every one of them:

"I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and he heard me..." Psalm 3:4
"O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me." Psalm 30:2

"In my distress I cried unto the LORD, and he heard me." Psalm 120:1

"Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah." Psalm 62:8
 

Rather than spontaneous outpourings, Catholic prayers are an endless repetition of written words. Interestingly, Jesus forbids this method of praying, claiming it is a practice the "heathen" perform:

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." Matthew 6:7

Secondly, the Catechism contends:

"Nor is it enough to know what the Scriptures reveal about prayer: one must also learn how to pray. Through a living transmission (Sacred Tradition) within 'the believing and praying Church,' the Holy Spirit teaches the children how to pray.' "  

Here, the Catechism proclaims that the Scriptures can't teach you how to pray. For that you must have the Catholic church. However, long before there was a Catholic church, people prayed and received answers to their prayers:

"Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants..." Genesis 20:17
"...when Moses prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched." Numbers 11:2

"Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha." 2 Kings 6:18
 

These people spontaneously poured out their hearts to God, without help from the Catholic church. God offers His children this invitation:

"And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me." Psalm 50:15
"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." Philippians 4:6-7
 

God's Word teaches that God not only accepts spontaneous outpourings, He encourages them.

Bondage?

Is it a coincidence that this Catholic doctrine further wraps members in bondage to the Catholic church? That is for you to decide.

Conclusion

We have a standoff. The Bible condemns Catholicism's form of prayer, and the Catholic church condemns the Biblical form of prayer. Obviously, you must choose sides.

Will you side with God and His Holy Word, or with the traditions of men?

"They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded." Psalm 22:5


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[tklein1014]

This is just my $.02, but my personal feeling is that God hears & answers (yes, no, maybe, not yet, etc.) all prayers that come from the heart, no matter whether it's structured or spontanious, Catholic, Protestant, or whatever.  See my testimony at the Glorify God home page...  God heard & answered my prayer and I wasn't even Baptised yet.  On the other hand, I have done the "Catholic" type of prayers as well since, and I don't claim to know how others pray, but for myself, usually the "repetitions" as you call them aren't just that, but there is usually some kind of intention behind them that is coming from the heart, like praying for an end to abortion, a personal request, or whatever.

Tina

[Melody]

Your ‘Question’ was a long one. So bear with my long reply!

Catechism quote "Prayer cannot be reduced to the spontaneous outpouring of interior impulse"

There are many aspects to that statement.

Firstly the word used is Spontaneous (defined as “said or done without having been planned or written in advance”) and not Personal (defined as “concerning or affecting a particular person or his or her private life and personality”) or Structured (defined as highly organised).

(01) Let’s discuss Spontaneous Prayers first.  Note that the Catechism does not say “NO spontaneous prayers”. There’s no argument there. Spontaneous prayer is and always will be an integral part of communication with God. Oh so often, I just say something to our beautiful God & it would be the greatest loss to humankind in the world if that were taken away from us.

But everything cannot and should not be left to spontaneity. Every serious Christian I know has a structured prayer time. This would include having a fixed time/schedule for personal prayer or praise & worship or Holy Mass or prayer meetings or rosaries etc. Does this cut out spontaneity? Yes, of course. Does it make it wrong? Definitely not!

(02) Now to Personal Prayers: Personal prayer need not be spontaneous. One can have a structured time & place for having it. In fact it is recommended by all churches to have personal prayer in a structured manner (even though would not incl. praying structured prayers).

Contrary to what you may believe, the Catechism has and def. never will say anything against personal prayer. In fact the opposite is true. Let me put up some quotes from the Catechism to back this up:

(a.) # 2688 The catechesis of children, young people, and adults aims at teaching them to meditate on The Word of God in personal prayer, practicing it in liturgical prayer, and internalizing it at all times in order to bear fruit in a new life.

(b.) (With reference to places of prayer) # 2691 For personal prayer, this can be a "prayer corner" with the Sacred Scriptures and icons, in order to be there, in secret, before our Father. In a Christian family, this kind of little oratory fosters prayer in common.

(c.) (Good one!!) # 2701 Vocal prayer is an essential element of the Christian life. To his disciples, drawn by their Master's silent prayer, Jesus teaches a vocal prayer, the Our Father. He not only prayed aloud the liturgical prayers of the synagogue but, as the Gospels show, he raised his voice to express his personal prayer, from exultant blessing of the Father to the agony of Gethsemane.

(d.) # 2657 The Holy Spirit, who instructs us to celebrate the liturgy in expectation of Christ's return, teaches us-to pray in hope. Conversely, the prayer of the Church and personal prayer nourish hope in us.

I could go on & on because the Catechism is really filled so much to say in the favor of personal prayer. Seeing as this is a forum however I will try to keep it short.

(03) Finally, let’s see what 'Interior Impulse' means. Impulse is defined as ‘an instinctive motive’. Again note that the Catechism is Not saying that praying on interior impulse is bad. It is saying however that prayer as a whole cannot be left to impulse. Imagine if we only prayed when we felt like it!
Comment: Instincts are not actually a form of knowledge, although the effect is the same. Knowledge is the product of a mental process. Instincts bypass this entirely.
Often we know we have to prayer in a certain situation however our instincts as human beings may be to react in various other ways.

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Now to your second quote from the Catechism

“Nor is it enough to know what the Scriptures reveal about prayer”

This means that you HAVE to know what the Scripture reveal about prayer but that alone is not enough! That means it’s Advocating Scriptural Prayer + More !

And not as you wrongly stated, “Here, the Catechism proclaims that the Scriptures can't teach you how to pray.”

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In Conclusion you wrote:

“The Bible condemns Catholicism's form of prayer, and the Catholic Church condemns the Biblical form of prayer. Obviously, you must choose sides”

Actually, if you study the Bible & the Catholic Church doctrine, you will note that they perfectly coincide with each other. Which of the above things that I wrote about does the Bible condemn?

Spontaneous Prayers? – we both agree that the Bible advocates these prayers.
Structured Prayers? – Notice the first Structured Prayer the “Our Father” was taught to us by Jesus Himself when the apostles asked Him to teach them how to pray. He could have said “Express your feelings” or “Cry out to the Lord in your own words” But perhaps He knew they needed some structure as well.
I would also like to say something in defense of the Rosary here: It is NOT a vain repetition. Repetition yes! Jesus Himself told us to Persist in prayer, like the widow with the unjust judge. So we can repeat our prayers.
Personal Prayers? – Jesus’ fav. type of prayer. Also widely advocated in the Bible.
Scriptural Prayers? – no argument from either side on these.


Here’s my conclusion!

ALL types of prayers are good!  I agree with Tina that God answers ALL prayers (whether it’s the answer we want or not). One cannot make a distinction between prayers and state that one type is better than the other or that one type is not good!

Like all good relationships variation in conversation is good. I personally use all the types of prayer I mentioned above, to speak to & hear from God. And I know we have a good time.

[Seeker]

Ayodhya had some good points (and quotes from Scripture) about prayer, although I disagree with his interpretation of the Catechism and conclusions about Catholic prayer.  He's reminded me not to use "vain repetitions."  For example, when I pray the Rosary I need to truly concentrate on the Mysteries, not let my mind wander so that my words become "vain repetitions."

Tina and Melody, I love your answers.  You've reminded me that God loves prayers that originate from our heart, whether our prayers are repetetive, structured, or spontaneous.  You've also given me good insight to true prayer and helped me to examine my own prayer life.  I am still learning to pray and I find that structured prayer actually helps me to pray better during those "spontaneous" times.  For me, it's like training my soul to speak to God.

Just wanted to add a couple points on repetition in prayer.  Jesus warned us against vain repetition.  In Matthew's account of the Agony in the Garden of Gethsamane, Jesus prays the same phrase to the Father three times.  Surely Jesus' repetition in this case was not "vain repetition."  

My wife loves to hear me say "I love you" time and time again (as long as I mean it each time I say it).  She would be offended if I said it without meaning and our marriage would suffer if I never repeated those words to her.  The way I see it, it's not the repetition that's wrong, but vain repetition that is.  Repetition with love, I think, would be as pleasing to God as it is to my wife.  

[DavidFilmer]

If Ayodhya plans to cut-and-paste the works of others, the least he could do is attribute it. Ayodhya plagerized this content from the book "Understanding Roman Catholicism," copyright 1995 by Rick Jones, which is posted (with permission and attrition) on Jack Chick's website (Jack Chick is a professional anti-Catholic):

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160%5F31.asp

[Stigmata]

Let Catholics pray in their own way, Ayodhya, and you may pray in yours.

It seems to me that sincerity is all that is required.

[cfcoelho]

Dear Stigmata,

I appreciate your response to this post.Ayodhya was merely trying to shed light on the Catholic prayers.I am a Catholic for the last 47 years and I am also a intercessory prayer group member of the Born Again Church. I testify that reciting repetitive written words are far less satisfying and effective than the spontaneous outpouring form of praying. I meet quite a few Catholic friends, who keep complaining that God is not listening to their prayers.In turn I do a favour to them by handing them the following:  

This is in two parts--the prayer (in small type) and GOD (in large type)
in response.

Our Father Who Art In Heaven.
YES?


Don't interrupt me. I'm praying.


BUT -- YOU CALLED ME!


Called you? No, I didn't call you. I'm praying. Our Father who art in
heaven.


THERE -- YOU DID IT AGAIN
Did what?


CALLED ME. YOU SAID, "OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN" WELL HERE I AM. WHAT'S ON YOUR MIND?


But I didn't mean anything by it. I was, you know, just saying my prayers
for the day. I always say the Lord's Prayer. It makes me feel good, kind of
like fulfilling a duty.

WELL, ALL RIGHT. GO ON.


Okay, Hallowed be Thy name...


HOLD IT RIGHT THERE. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
By what?


BY "HALLOWED BE THY NAME"?


It means, it means ... good grief, I don't know what it means. How in the
world should I know? It's just a part of the prayer. By the way, what does
it mean?


IT MEANS HONORED, HOLY, WONDERFUL.


Hey, that makes sense. I never thought about what 'hallowed' meant before.
Thanks. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.


DO YOU REALLY MEAN THAT?


Sure, why not?


WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT?


Doing? Why, nothing, I guess. I just think it would be kind of neat if you
got control of everything down here like you have up there. We're kinda in
a mess down here you know.


YES, I KNOW; BUT, HAVE I GOT CONTROL OF YOU?


Well, I go to church.


THAT ISN'T WHAT I ASKED YOU. WHAT ABOUT YOUR BAD TEMPER? YOU'VE REALLY GOT
A PROBLEM THERE, YOU KNOW. AND THEN THERE'S THE WAY YOU SPEND YOUR MONEY
--ALL ON YOURSELF. AND WHAT ABOUT THE KIND OF BOOKS YOU READ?


Now hold on just a minute! Stop picking on me! I'm just as good as some of
the rest of those people at church!


EXCUSE ME. I THOUGHT YOU WERE PRAYING FOR MY WILL TO BE DONE. IF THAT IS TO HAPPEN, IT WILL HAVE TO START WITH THE ONES WHO ARE PRAYING FOR IT. LIKE YOU -- FOR EXAMPLE.


Oh, all right. I guess I do have some hang-ups. Now that you mention it, I
could probably name some others.

SO COULD I.

I haven't thought about it very much until now, but I really would like to
cut out some of those things. I would like to, you know, be really free.


GOOD. NOW WE'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE. WE'LL WORK TOGETHER -- YOU AND ME. I'M
PROUD OF YOU.


Look, Lord, if you don't mind, I need to finish up here. This is taking a
lot longer than it usually does. Give us this day, our daily bread.


YOU NEED TO CUT OUT THE BREAD. YOU'RE OVERWEIGHT AS IT IS.


Hey, wait a minute! What is this? Here I was doing my religious duty, and
all of a sudden you break in and remind me of all my hang-ups.


PRAYING IS A DANGEROUS THING. YOU JUST MIGHT GET WHAT YOU ASK FOR.
REMEMBER, YOU CALLED ME -- AND HERE I AM. IT'S TOO LATE TO STOP NOW. KEEP PRAYING.


..pause...
WELL, GO ON.


I'm scared to.


SCARED? OF WHAT?

I know what you'll say.

TRY ME.

Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.

WHAT ABOUT CAROL?

See? I knew it! I knew you would bring her up! Why, Lord, she's told lies
about me, spread stories. She never paid back the money she owes me. I've
sworn to get even with her!


BUT -- YOUR PRAYER -- WHAT ABOUT YOUR PRAYER?


I didn't -- mean it.


WELL, AT LEAST YOU'RE HONEST. BUT, IT'S QUITE A LOAD CARRYING AROUND ALL THAT BITTERNESS AND RESENTMENT ISN'T IT?


Yes, but I'll feel better as soon as I get even with her. Boy, have I got
some plans for her. She'll wish she had never been born.


NO, YOU WON'T FEEL ANY BETTER. YOU'LL FEEL WORSE. REVENGE ISN'T SWEET. YOU KNOW HOW UNHAPPY YOU ARE -- WELL, I CAN CHANGE THAT.


You can? How?


FORGIVE CAROL. THEN, I'LL FORGIVE YOU; AND THE HATE AND SIN WILL BE CAROL'S PROBLEM -- NOT YOURS. YOU WILL HAVE SETTLED THE PROBLEM AS FAR AS YOU ARE CONCERNED.


Oh, you know, you're right. You always are. And more than I want revenge, I
want to be right with You..., (sigh). All right...all right...I forgive
her.


THERE NOW! WONDERFUL! HOW DO YOU FEEL?


Hmmmm. Well, not bad. Not bad at all! In fact, I feel pretty great! You
know, I don't think I'll go to bed uptight tonight. I haven't been getting
much rest, you know.


YEAH, I KNOW. BUT, YOU'RE NOT THROUGH WITH YOUR PRAYER ARE YOU? GO ON.


Oh, all right. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.


GOOD! GOOD! I'LL DO THAT. JUST DON'T PUT YOURSELF IN A PLACE WHERE YOU CAN BE TEMPTED.


What do you mean by that?


YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.


Yeah. I know.


OKAY. GO AHEAD. FINISH YOUR PRAYER.


For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever. Amen.


DO YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD BRING ME GLORY -- WHAT WOULD REALLY MAKE ME HAPPY?


No, but I'd like to know. I want to please you now. I've really made a mess
of things. I want to truly follow you. I can see now how great that would
be. So, tell me ... how do I make you happy?


YOU JUST DID

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AND GOD'S PEOPLE SAID " AMEN"


Colin

[Melody]

I testify that reciting repetitive written words are far less satisfying and effective than the spontaneous outpouring form of praying.

Dear Colin, while I understand & also agree with what you're saying to a great degree, I think what we should focus on is whether repetitive prayers are 'good' (so the question asked). And the answer to that is YES (for the many reasons I've already pointed out).

Also the aim of our prayers is not always to satisfy ourselves. I know very many pious people who do nothing but recite the rosary over & over, every bead interceeding for others. I do not for a minute doubt the Effectiveness of their prayers, repetitive though they are. As Seeker said, as long as they are not Vain repitions, we're ok.

I meet quite a few Catholic friends, who keep complaining that God is not listening to their prayers

Yes, I too meet many Catholics who have this complaint. But truth be told, most of them are not really seeking God as they should. If God revealed Himself to me, I'm sure He'd do the same for any of them if they exercise their free will & ask Him too. Alternatively, send your friends for a retreat to Potta / Tabor

Blessings,

Melody

[Ayodhya Nath Bhat]

Good response

Love


Ayodhya