Promise of a Saviour

[Richard Mascarenhas]

To Save a fallen Man a Saviour was promised.:  Where in the book of Genesis is this promise?

In one of the book I was reading it stated that Gen. 3:15 speaks of the promise of sending the saviour.  Gen.3:15 as listed below does not say anything on the promise. The promise was fulfilled in Jn.3:16 

The promise itself I am unable to find.  Can someone help?

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush  your head, and you will strike his heel."
The fulfillment of the promise
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

[Satish]

Hi Richard,

I am the least qualified member in this community.
However, since nobody is replying, let me just give it a shot.
The "woman" mentioned in this verse is Mary and the offspring being Jesus himself.
In Isaiah 7:14 also, there is the promise of the coming of the Saviour.

God bless!
Satish

[Richard Mascarenhas]

Hi Satish

Thanks for your reply, but that dosent explain the promise of a saviour.  I had this question emailed to one of our moderator at the Bible Study Class, but he too has not responded.  I was surprised at the silence at this forum also, v hv some very knowledgeable people on the forum.  Wake up you guys, Melody - where are you?

Richard

[Seeker]

Hi guys,

I was on vacation this past week with my family.  I have some Bible Study materials that may be useful.  I'll do some digging and see what I come up with.  From my understanding, Satish is right  But it sounds like you're looking for a direct refernce to a savior.

[Seeker]

Hi Richard,

I make no claims to be qualified to answer your question.  However, here is my understanding of the promise of a Savior in Gen 3:15 based on the little research I could do.  Perhaps the Spirit will also shed some light on Gen 3:15 for us.

The promise of a Savior in Genesis 3:15 is implicit in the words: "...he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

The text by itself seems to predict a natural enmity between humanity and snakes.  But the spiritual message, read in light of the New Testament also predicts the final demise of Satan, that ancient "serpent" (he will crush your head) through Christ's crucifixion (and you will strike his heel).

Amid the tragedy of Adam and Eve's fall is this glimmer of hope.  Amid the apparent victory of Satan, that ancient serpent, God foretells Satan's defeat with the aid of humanity.  God promises the Devil that he will be utterly defeated by the offspring of the woman.

1 John 3:8 "Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil."

Rom 16:19-20 "For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I want you to be wise as to what is good, and simple as to what is evil; then the God of peace will quickly crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you."

Rev 12:17 "Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus. It took its position on the sand of the sea."

Christ destroying the works of the Devil, Christians crushing Satan under their feet, and the dragon (the ancient serpent) waging war against the woman's offspring, allude to Gen 3:15.  Satan is also alluded to as the serpent in Genesis in Wisdom 2:24, John 8:44, Rev 12:9, and Rev 20:2.

Finally, this interpretation of Genesis 3:15 has been part of the Church since the second century A.D.  We see this from the writings of St. Justin Marytyr, St. Irenaeus, St. Cyprian, St. Ephraem, and others.  This is part of seeing Mary as the New Eve with Christ as the New Adam.  We see in Christ calling his mother "woman" in the Gospel of John, a reference to the "woman" in Gen 3:15.

In summary, the reference in Gen 3:15 to a Savior is not explicit, but implicit.  We see it when enlightened by New Testament writings and the early Church Fathers.

References:
http://marymediatrix-resourceonline.com/library/files/scholastic/pat_pevang.htm
http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ge+3:15&version=nas&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#410
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm#489
http://www.salvationhistory.com/online/beginner/class1_lesson2_2.cfm
http://www.salvationhistory.com/online/intermediate/course2_lesson2.cfm#The%20New%20Eve
http://www.udayton.edu/mary/meditations/neweve.html
http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/0506-96/article9.html
http://www.cin.org/jp960918.html
http://biblia.com/jesusbible/deut2c.htm

[Satish]

Hi Seeker,

Good to have you back.
Thanks for the explanations.

God bless!
Satish

[Seeker]

Hi Satish!

It's good to see you too.  Hope all is well with you.

God bless!

[Melody]

Firstly, hello you guys!

Am terribly sorry for the silence - yes, feel like I was miles away...

First up - agree with Seeker (see how many times I do that! Isn't it great when brothers & sisters dwell in unity?!), so will not add on much in terms of content (check out the number of links!!! Long live Seeker!!!).

Will say this - Fr. Mathew Elavunkal, who is the Director of Tabor Divine Retreat Ashram (branch of the Potta /  Divine Center, M) preaches a very in depth class on THIS VERY topic.

Not only is Gen 3:15 the very promise of a Savior that you were looking for - but it is the basis of the entire fact that THERE IS NO OTHER SAVIOR - you see, not only did Jesus crush the head of Satan to save us - but also HE IS THE ONLY ONE who can and who has done that!

(The part of Satan striking Jesus' heel is also true, because he inflicted the great passion - which is worse than anyone can ever imagine   - on the Christ).

Besides this scripture (3:15), the verses before & after it also are filled with deep intense meaning and explain greatly the truth I just wrote - Jesus is the only Savior of the World.

Blessings,

Melody

PS: Would it be possible for you to do a retreat at Tabor?
 

[Richard Mascarenhas]

Seeker, Melody, Satish,

Thanks for the replies.  Seeker, you have given quite a number of references in trying to explain.
I wish to pick the last two lines of your reply "In summary, the reference in Gen 3:15 to a Savior is not explicit, but implicit.  We see it when enlightened by New Testament writings and the early Church Fathers."

In other words, there is no explicit reference at all.  You further say and even melody states it "when enlightened by New Testament", considering we are lucky to have the enlightenment of the NT, what about people before the NT or those of OT, they too were looking forward to a promised Saviour.  Where did they get to know of the Promised Saviour.

Jesus is the only Savior of the World. Agreed, that Jesus came, suffered, died and rose and brought about reconciliation and redemption of man. We say "as promised"  and so i ask - where is the promise that we keep talking of?

PS: Would it be possible for you to do a retreat at Tabor? – Melody, that was your suggestion.  Well, I have made two residential retreats at Tabor in 2001 and 2002, besides a few one days also.  Very recently, thats April 2005 i have been to DRCM, (Potta) for the residential retreat.  I don't think this topic was discussed in detail then, maybe it is being lately being preached.  Is it possible for you to get some writeup or CD on this preaching.  I cant attend another retreat for at least another year as i am in Abu Dhabi.

Sorry, to drag this discussion, not feeling satisfied yet - Not your fault though.

The book that you distributed and promised to mail one to my residence in Mira Road, Mumbai.  Have u mailed it.  I haven't received it so far.

Thanks
Richard

[Seeker]

Hi Richard,

Let's stay the course until you are satisfied or we find there is nothing more to discuss.  This is a good discussion.  I hadn't really thought about this in great detail before.

In other words, there is no explicit reference at all.  You further say and even melody states it "when enlightened by New Testament", considering we are lucky to have the enlightenment of the NT, what about people before the NT or those of OT, they too were looking forward to a promised Saviour.  Where did they get to know of the Promised Saviour.

Some might disagree, but I would agree that Gen 3:15 is not an explicit reference to the promise of a Savior.  Rather, it refers more explicitly to war between humanity and the Devil, and the ultimate defeat of Satan.  The promise of a Savior as the means to accomplish this is understood from other OT and NT passages. Technically, we can also understand that Satan is the serpent in Genesis only because of passages outside of Genesis (especially in the Book of Wisdom and the NT).  In other words, if we're going to see the promise of a Savior in Gen 3:15, we must consider all of Scripture, not just the text of Gen 3:15 by itself.  That's just my view on this.  You may consider researching Biblical commentary of other more learned folks.  I could check on what some of the early Church Fathers had to say, but the ones I referred to in my above post (Justin, Irenaeus, etc) consider all of Scripture to make the conclusion that Gen 3:15 refers to the promise of a Savior that will defeat Satan.

The Prophetic Writings were written chronologically after the Creation story.  So it is possible the hint of a future Savior in Gen 3:15 later became more explicit in the prophetic utterances of Isaiah and the other prophets, whose words were inspired by the Holy Spirit.  The Jews saw the clear promise of a Saviour in the writings of the prophets, such as Isaiah.  So I probably should have added "when enlightened by the NT and the writings of the OT prophets." 

The following article details the development of a Messiah in Jewish thought and might be helpful for understanding where the Jews saw the promise of a Savior in Scripture.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10212c.htm

Also see the lesson on the Consolation of Israel (VIId) at http://www.salvationhistory.com/online/beginner/class_1lesson5_3.cfm.

[Richard Mascarenhas]

Dear All

I share with you below the mail i received from another friend Br. Valerian (preaching the WOG at the Prayer service in Abu Dhabi)

----------------------------------

Dear Br. Richard,

God created the invisible before creating the visible. He created
angels first. The angels were and are even today praising God.
Pride entered in Lucifer, the angel of light and he thought (
Isaiah 14:12-14)I will sit above the throne of the almighty and
there was battle in heaven. God did not make any salvation plan
for the fallen angels but pushed them into hell instantly.

God created man and said " very Good". He created man in the image
of the Trinity. Man disobeyed God and did not guard the garden of
Eden against the wicked. But, at that moment itself, God in his
mercy and compassion, designed a salvation plan for man so that he
should not perish but must have eternal life. He said to the
serpent(a sea monster), "I will put enemity between your off
spring and the off spring of woman. He will crush your head and
you will strike his heal" ( Gen 3:15)

Note the word woman. The woman is mother Mary and her seed is
Jesus Christ. Jesus will crush the head of Satan. The promise is
fulfilled (in John 3:16)and Jesus in spite of temptations and
futile attempts of Satan, defeated Satan and claimed victory over
death and Sin.

I hope you are clear.

[Seeker]

Thanks Richard.  Good email.

By the way, has the question been answered to your satisfaction?  Perhaps we are still missing something.

[Richard Mascarenhas]

Hi Seeker,

It has not answered the way i wanted it to find.  left with no choice but to consider it the way it is being presented by the knowldegeable ones on the Word of God. 

In the answer that was mailed above, he speaks of the woman and the enimity with the serpent.  At that time when God spoke those words, there was God, Adam & EVE and ofcourse the serpent.  Eve being the only woman is he only woman who was cheated by the serpent.  So when God refers to enimity between the woman and the serpent, the woman means EVE.  The cheated (serpent) and the Cheated (EVE).   Why should the woman be Mary and not EVE?  The reason given is that the Bible is to be taken in totality and with the enlightenment of the NT, the woman is considered to be Mary.   Question still remains of those people before the Messenger of God visited Mary and informed of the Plan of God.?

Can someone suggest how to find enlightened answer to questions such as these?

Richard

[Seeker]

Hi Richard,

Good points.

Question still remains of those people before the Messenger of God visited Mary and informed of the Plan of God.?

What about the Old Testament prophets and the promises of a Savior through them?  Would they be the answer to your question regarding the people before the New Testament?

[Richard Mascarenhas]

At that time when God spoke those words, there was God, Adam & EVE and ofcourse the serpent.  Eve being the only woman who was cheated by the serpent.  So when God refers to enimity between the woman and the serpent, the woman means EVE.  The cheated (serpent) and the Cheated (EVE).   Why should the woman be Mary and not EVE? 
Richard

Hi seeker,

U haven't given your comments on the above.

In the OT Isiaih phrophesises it, i think that is some 700 yrs. BC?

When the discussion was taken further with my friend, i got the reply, futher discussion will only take us back to square one.  So the discussion ended there. 

Whats your opinion seeker.  Actually i am only looking for a direct reference of Gods promise.  Other then Gen3:15 (which needs greater enlightenment to understand) i think v hv to hear it from the Phrophets through whom God spoke.

Richard

[Seeker]

Whats your opinion seeker.  Actually i am only looking for a direct reference of Gods promise.  Other then Gen3:15 (which needs greater enlightenment to understand) i think v hv to hear it from the Phrophets through whom God spoke.

I agree with you Richard.  Gen 3:15 is not a direct and explicit reference to the promise of a Savior. We only see it as such because we consider the rest of Scripture.  If God's revelation ended at Gen 3:15, humanity would probably not fully understand the promise of a Saviour since God is talking directly to Eve as the woman.  We must look to the prophets and God's revelation in the New Testament to fully understand Gen 3:15 and all its layers of meaning, including a reference to Christ and His mother. 

Even if one does not consider Mary as the woman in Gen 3:15, God tells Eve that her offspring will crush the head of the serpent.  This offspring is Christ since he is human as well as divine. But this offspring could also by the Blessed Virgin since another legitimate translation is "she shall crush thy head."  In this sense, Genesis 3:15 is a reference to the final defeat of the serpent by the offspring of Eve, "the mother of all the living."

Likewise, we only fully understand the prophecies of Isaiah (and the other prophets) because of the New Testament.  One can make the case that Isaiah spoke directly about the times and the situation he was in and not about Christ.  But Christians see more in his prophecies since we have the advantage of seeing it in light of the revelation of Christ.

Yes, according to the introduction to Isaiah in the NAB, his prophecies were written before 700 B.C. http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/intro.htm

[Richard Mascarenhas]

Thanks Seeker, Melody and Satish for your contributions. Be with you soon.

God Bless
Richard

[trmichels]

I dont' know that the verse can be interpreted STRICTLY as a savior, but it is probably a reference to a savior as the Hebrew understood it later on.

First of all we probably shouldn't interpret this as a Christian, because it was written by a Hebrew, meant for those of what we call the Jewish faith. It was not  meant for Christians at that time, because there were none. But, it does apply to Christians becasue we accept the Torah.

I say this because I spent several weeks last year meditating with Yahweh, and I belive I had several divine inspirations and revelations, during which I realized I had gto start thinking like an ancient Hebrew if I wantedto unerstand the OT.

I've got lots of new writings to post, and already have stirred things up on the "Holy Spirit" thread.

If I interpret it (the best I can as a Chrstian, tyring to think like a Hebrew of the Jewish faith) correctly it implies that Eve's offspring (probably meaning through all the generations to the expected Jewish Messiah) will come against the serpent (Satan) to whom this passage is addressed.

We as Christians see this "expected Jewish Messiah" as Jesus the Christian Savior, who the Jews will recognize as the Jewish Savior when he comes during the "end time" of Revelation to rule the world/universe.

If you want my take on the "end time", I'll post it. 

Hello Melody

I'm baa aa ck.

May Yahweh bless all of you.

T.R.