Holy Spirit is Not a Person Thread

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!

[Seeker]

This thread began as an objection by a member that the Holy Spirit is not a person and that Scripture does not support the theology of the Trinity.
 
Material from other sites was used in some posts but the original author was not properly cited.  The poster was notified that this could be plagiarism and was against forum rules.  He responded by deleting the content of his posts.  His points were lost but we have the responses made by other members of the Community.

This is what remains.

[Seeker]

Grammatically speaking, you haven’t proven whether the Holy Spirit is a person or not.  The word "spirit" is neuter in Greek, that is true.  The word "parakletos" is masculine in Greek, that is true too.  But to say “…to translate these [Helper, Comforter, Advocate] into English as ‘he,’ ‘him,’ etc., is grammatically incorrect,” reflects your own doctrinal bias against the Holy Spirit being a person.  It is grammatically correct, it just doesn't support your ideas about the Holy Spirit.

Since strictly using Greek grammar as an indicator of personhood for the Spirit appears to be inconclusive, we should look further, at the attributes of the Holy Spirit in Scripture.  God and the angels are also described as neuter spirit, yet we recognize them as “persons” and not mere forces (see John 4:24 and Heb 1:14). 

You seem to be stuck on “spirit” being a neuter word in Greek.  Yet you also recognize that the Holy Spirit is called the Comforter, Paraclete, and Advocate which are not neuter and not impersonal, no matter if its Greek neuter, feminine, or masculine.  "Spirit" is used to describe the Paraclete's nature, not indicate his personhood, or not.

Scripture bears witness to the Holy Spirit as a person and not an impersonal force.  For example, John 14:26 tells us the Holy Spirit teaches and reminds.  To teach and remind requires an intellect, something we attribute to “persons.”  The Holy Spirit is also our Advocate, “another” Comforter.  We recognize Jesus as a person and he refers to the Holy Spirit as “another” in relationship to himself (John 14:16-17).  We know Jesus as a person, why not the other, the Paraclete? In John 15:26, the Spirit gives witness to Jesus.  He also convinces, guides, hears, speaks, glorifies Jesus, and shows things to come (Jn 16:7-13).  He even makes covenants and forgives sin (Heb 10:15-17).  These are all the actions of a "person," not an impersonal "force."

[Seeker]

The "Holy Spirit" is in reference to Father Yahweh's spirit and is not a SEPERATE person.

Do we agree that Scripture shows the "Holy Spirit" is a person?

Is your premise that the Holy Spirit is not a separate person but is equivalent to the Father?

[Seeker]

Frank,

I'd like to address the rest of your post, but I want to understand your concept of the Holy Spirit first.

You said:

The "Holy Spirit" is in reference to Father Yahweh's spirit and is not a SEPERATE person. The Scriptural reference you gave above bears witness to this. Nothing was said about Yahweh's spirit being an "impersonal force" and certainly Father Yahweh is not without intelect. My argument is that the "Holy Spirit" of Yahweh is not a SEPERATE person

Which leads me to believe that you view the Spirit in Scripture as a reference to the Father Yahweh (neither an impersonal force nor a person distinct from the Father).

But then you said:

The "Holy Spirit" is the power of Father Yahweh and His spirit is not a seperate person.

Which leads me to believe you see the Spirit is the power of Father Yahweh and not himselfl.

Would you clarify so I understand exactly what you believe before I respond further?  Is the Spirit as you understand it, the power of Yahweh which emanates from him, or Father Yahweh Himself?  Is it Yahweh or something that comes from Him?

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!

[Seeker]

Hi Frank,

Sorry this took so long, but here's my reponse.  I'll try to check back in a few weeks to see your reply.

That righteous thing which was committed unto you keep by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us (2 Timothy 1:14).

No man has seen Yahweh at any time. If we love one another, Yahweh dwells in us, and his love is perfected in us (1 John 4:12).

Theses two passages speaks of the "Holy Spirt" and Yahweh dwelling in us. I can only conclude that Yahweh is one Spirit and not a seperate person, but Father Yahweh Himself.

But Trinity also explains these passages.  The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God.   Therefore, when the Holy Spirit dwells within us, it is God who dwells in us.  As a believer in the Trinitarian God I agree that the Father and the Spirit are one, just as the Father and the Son are one and the Spirit and the Son are one.  But I also believe that Scripture shows they are distinct.  Scripture shows that in the One Supreme Being we call God there is also relationship, a reciprocal exchange of love.

Yahweh is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth (Yahchanan [John] 4:24).

Yes, God is spirit but that doesn’t preclude the Holy Spirit being spirit and yet a distinct relation (“person”) to the Father and the Son. 

They Are United In Yahweh's Spirit

But he that is joined unto Yahweh is one spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17).

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body ... (1 Corinthains 12:13)

For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father (Ephesians 2:18).

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Yahweh, one faith, one baptism, One Yahweh and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all (Ephesians 4:4-6).

... that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together in the faith of the glad tidings (Philippians 1:27).

Yes!  There is one Spirit, but not one spirit.  Angels are called ministering spirits in Scripture.  The Father is Divine Spirit, but that doesn’t preclude the Spirit he sends from being distinct from Himself, yet one.

"Christianity. Any of the three separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as distinguished from the essence of the Godhead that unites them."
Source: definition of 'person' - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=person

IMHO that definition of “person” as it is used to describe the Three-in-One God is inadequate.  God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is not merely three individuals united by the same Divine essence.  God is a “personal” being that includes relationship within Himself.  Father is Father in relationship to Son.  Son is Son in relationship to Father.  Holy Spirit is Gift and Love because He is given by Father to Son.

My argument is with those who teach that the "Holy Spirit" is a seperate person, or for that matter, a person. Nowhere in Scripture is "Holy Spirit" discribed as a person. Father Yahweh Himself is never discribed as a person in Scripture, but a "Spirit".

How do you define the term “person”?  If a “person” (be they spirit or human) is any being capable of love and intellect that we can enter into a relationship with, then I think we can probably agree that the Father is a “person” in that respect.  In that same sense, I also see the Son and the Holy Spirit as “persons.” The Holy Spirit is someone we can enter into a relationship with distinct from the Father and the Son and in the Spirit we also enter into a relationship with the Father and the Son because they are one..

Now as to whether the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father, or the same as the Father, I see that Scripture makes a distinction between the Father and His Spirit as well as the Son and His Spirit.  For example,

Joh 14:16  And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever:
Joh 14:17  The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you.

This “other” Paraclete shows distinction from and relation to both Father and Son.

Joh 14:26  But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

The Father “sends” the Paraclete, a “person” distinct from Himself, yet related to Himself.

Joh 15:26  But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.

The Paraclete (the Spirit of truth) “proceeds from” the Father and is “sent” by the Son.  Three distinct relations.

Mat 28:18  And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19  Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

We baptize in the NAME of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost.

Luk 3:22  And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, as a dove, upon him. And a voice came from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son. In thee I am well pleased.

The Holy Spirit descends in visible bodily form, the voice of the Father from heaven, and the Son who the Holy Spirit descends upon.

In all these passages, the Holy Spirit is mentioned as distinct and relative to the Father and the Son.

For example many make such statements as ... "There is one God ("Yahweh") who has revealed Himself as three persons." "The Holy Spirit is Yahweh Himself as the third person of a triune God." Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Father Yahweh reveals Himself as three persons of a triune "God" or "Godhead". I believe that Father Yahweh is but one spirit being. Yahweh is one, not three.

Yes, God is one, not three.  But Scripture also reveals that this One God also has dialogue with Himself and contains relationship with Himself among the Divine Father, Divine Son, and Divine Paraclete (Holy Ghost/Spirit/Gift/Love etc.).

Spirit is what Father Yahweh is, not who He is. Father Yahweh is our Heavenly Father and Creator. That is who He is. If one were to ask me who Yahweh is, I would not respond with what He is, but with who He is.

Yes, I agree.  The same can be said about the Paraclete (the Holy Spirit, the Counselor).  Spirit is what He is, not just who He is.  Paraclete, Gift, Love, Counselor, Advocate, Holy Ghost, and Holy Spirit are all proper names we call this “person” of Divine spirit.  They help describe who He is, not just what He is.

Now, I believe that Father Yahweh reveals Himself in persons or individuals by His word. He revealed Himself  through His word to His only begotten son Yahshua whom He anointed. Father Yahweh also revealed Himself in others by His word through His son Yahshua.

What do you see as His “word”?  For example, is His “word” the Father’s thought and/or voice and/or writings and/or feelings and/or emotions, etc and by what means does the Father reveal or impart his “word” to others?  As you probably already guessed, I believe His Word IS His only begotten Son Yahshua.

There Is More To This Unity Than Three!

I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing (Yahchanan [John] 15:5).

Yahshua in communication (prayer) with Father Yahweh said: 

"I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.  I pray not that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Seperate them through Your truth: Your word is truth. As You have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.  And for their sakes I seperate myself, that they also might be seperated through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as You, Father, are in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that You have sent me. And the glory which You gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and You in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them, as You have loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom You have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my esteem, which You have given me: for You loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world has not known You: but I have known You, and these have known that You have sent me.  And I have declared unto them Your Name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith You have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

Yahcahanan [John] 17:14-26

But he that is joined unto Yahweh is one spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17).

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body ... (1 Corinthains 12:13)

For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father (Ephesians 2:18).

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Yahweh, one faith, one baptism, One Yahweh and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all (Ephesians 4:4-6).

... that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together in the faith of the glad tidings (Philippians 1:27).

Yes, we are ALL called to unity with God and each other in the Spirit.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!

[trmichels]

The following posta are from one of my books. Stick with me, I'll get there.


The Holy Trinity: Human Logic or Spiritual Faith?
One mark of a mature true Christian is "faith". Faith is not just saying. "I believe in God". True Christian faith is believing in monotheism (that there is only one God, and that his name is Yahweh Sabaoth), and believing that He has three distinct yet inseparably intermingled manifestations, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

     Faith and faith alone, will allow you to accept that truth. As long as any of us try to understand and live Christianity on human terms, on human logic, we will never have the true Spiritual Gift of Faith. We, as humans, need to allow our human selves, our "essence" our understanding, our mind, our spirit, to die, and to be reborn of the Holy Spirit, before we can come into the fullness of faith - understanding, and acceptance of Jesus as one the three manifestations of the ONE Godhead of the Holy Trinity.

     One of the mistakes some people have made with their use of logic seems to be a false conclusion that Yahweh is limited in his ability to be, and appear, in as many persons and places as He desires. Yahweh is not limited in his abilities as we are, He can be and do anything He wants. Yahweh is not finite - He is infinite. For some people to use the belief that "Yahweh is finite" as an argument defies all understandings of a "god", and thus and understanding of Yahweh. If their understanding of Yahweh is synonymous with / part of their logic, then their logic is flawed. Thus their conclusions are flawed. They are not using Faith. As long as anyone insists on relying on logic and human reasoning, they will never achieve the fullness of the "Spiritual Gift of Faith".

This use of human understanding, reasoning and logic to understand and believe in Yahweh is, in itself, a self defeating path;  and a dangerous path, because it can lead to the non-Biblical belief that either there is more than one God, or Jesus is not God, both of which are wrong/false conclusions, which are in opposition to Yahweh's Word, the Bible. Therefore these beliefs are in opposition to Yahweh Himself.

     I suspect that it is these false beliefs that will allow many humans (including those who are Christians, those claiming to be Christians, those who are uncommitted to Christ, those who do not believe in Christ, and those who refuse to believe in Christ), to be deceived by the Anti-Christ - now and during the "End Times". After all he is called the Deceiver.

     Since we know the Anti-Christ/Satan will deceive some people, it is likely that (of those who call themselves Christians) it will be those Christians who have a poor understanding or a misunderstanding of Christianity; those who are not yet mature Christians; or those who do not have the Spiritual Gift of Faith to help them accept the truth of the mystery of the Holy Trinity; who will be deceived.

     Thus, an incomplete understanding of the Holy Trinity, a false belief that Jesus is not Yahweh, a false belief that Jesus is not one-in-being with Yahweh Sabaoth (he is not a second or third god), is not a path I would want to be on, and I would think, neither would anyone who wishes to be saved. We are saved by "faith" alone. Those of you who do not yet have the Spiritual Gift of Faith, who wish to be saved, should ask Yahweh Sabaoth to give you the Gift of Faith, through the second manifestation of the One Godhead of the Holy Trinity; the Holy Spirit.

If we accept the theory/belief/supposition of monotheism (which is exactly what Abraham's understanding of Yahweh was) we believe that Yahweh Sabaoth is our God, and that He is a Holy Trinity. When Yahweh gave Moses the Ten Commandments He told him that there is only one God, and no other god shall be put before Him. The term "Yahweh" is first used by Yahweh of himself in Ex. 3:15, when Moses asks what he should tell the Israelites God's name is. Yahweh responds, "You are to tell all the Israelites, 'Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. "This is my name for all time, and thus I am to be invoked for all generations". (This is why, when I pray, I invoke the name of Yahweh Sabaoth.)

     The word Sabaoth is the Greek form of the Aramaic word tsebaoth, which means "armies". Yahweh Sabaoth means "Lord God of Hosts", which in the mouth and mind of an ancient Hebrew meant "the leader and commander of the armies of the Hebrew nation". This shows that the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews believe that the Messiah (the leader of the armies of Yahweh at Armageddon) will be Yahweh Sabaoth, the Lord God of Hosts. Yahweh and Jesus are the same person.

     One tenet of Judaism is that there is only one God, Yahweh Sabaoth. But, as has been discussed at length elsewhere, and as has been shown by several excerpts from the divine inspired "Word" of Yahweh (the Bible), another Aramaic word for God is eloi or elohim which was understood by the Hebrews, and likely by many other Middle East cultures, as being pluralistic. So, because there is only one God, but He is plural, the only conclusion we can come to is that Yahweh has more than one part.

     We know that the Israelites understood this, by their use of the words "Spirit of God" in the very first verse of the Bible. Those words imply that there are not two Gods, but one, but that there is another part of Yahweh Sabaoth, which is the "essence" or felt or heard "presence" of Yahweh or his mind/thoughts, without Yahweh actually being seen. So, we already have two manifestations of Yahweh; one that we inherently know about/understand as "being", that is able to appear as a non-corporeal spirit or a burning bush; and another manifestation that is heard or felt without being seen.

     We also know that the Israelites knew about the physical manifestation of Yahweh in human form, by the use of the words "Angel of the Lord". This "Angel of the Lord" was the physical manifestation of a man "in the likeness of God" that appeared to many of the Old Testament Patriarchs and Prophets. If Adam saw Yahweh, this would probably have been the manifestation shown to him.

     I do not know if this human form of Yahweh looked like Jesus, but since Yahweh had previously manifested himself in the incarnation of a human body, it may well have been the same appearance as Jesus in his adult years. I think it is possible that Moses, Elijah, Enoch and others would recognize Jesus as the "Messiah" as soon as they saw him. And they would know that He was in fact Yahweh Sabaoth (interpreted by the Israelites as "God-the-leader-of-the-armies-of-Israel"), which is how the Jews expect Yawheh to appear some time in the future.

I cannot say that I understand how difficult it is for those of you who were not brought up in strong Christian-based families, or did not go to Christian schools, to understand the Yahweh is a triune god; because I was raised to believe Yahweh is a triune god; it has been engrained in me as far back as I can remember. I have known nothing else, therefore there is nothing else, even if I have wondered, and asked questions, and searched the Bible and non-Biblical sources. The more I search, the more convinced I am of the fact of the Holy Trinity.

     So, all logic tells me that Jesus is NOT a god who is NOT part of Yahweh. Jesus is NOT one God, and Yahweh is another God, and the Holy Spirit is a third God. IT CANNOT BE; for THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, His name is YAHWEH SABAOTH, and I will not put any god, or gods, before Him. This is one of the central issues/beliefs (dogma) of Christianity that probably cannot be accepted/understood on logic or proof. In fact, it may be necessary to be accepted with the very definition of "belief" in God/Judaism/Christianity; and that definition is "faith". And, as I have noted elsewhere, faith is one of the Spiritual Gifts (charisms) that Yahweh will deny no man or woman, if they seek the truth of Yahweh, and simply ask for it.

    If we really understand Christian faith, we know that it is a gift that helps us to accept and believe in Yahweh Sabaoth/the Holy Trinity, even though it is beyond human comprehension. To comprehend Yahweh we must have the faith of a child. So, be a child of Yahweh Sabaoth, and you can accept the truth of the Holy Trinity, without proof, without logic, without total understanding.

When look at the New Testament we find that many early Jewish converts simply accepted the truth of Jesus, accepted that He was Yahweh, because they already had faith in Yahweh Sabaoth. And, when they accepted the truth of Jesus, many of them began speaking in tongues, as a sign to them that something new, something different, had come into their lives. Their belief in Jesus had allowed the Holy Spirit, the "physically active part" of Yahweh, to manifest himself in their lives, and in their minds and bodies.

     Without this "baptism of the Holy Spirit" that Jesus promised He would leave behind with/for us when He left earth; without this manifestation of Yahweh in us, in our soul and spirit, it is difficult for us to know/understand/completely comprehend Yahweh's Word (the Bible), and live a life imitating Jesus the Christ, the life of a true Christian. That is why being a "born again" Christian is so important; for it is only by being "born again" that we are saved and that we are able to allow the Holy Spirit to manifest Himself (the physically active part of Yahweh) within ourselves, which allows us to receive and use the "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" (charisms) meant for each of us.

     Read 1 Cor. 12-14:25; it is not just a reference to spiritual manifestations of the time of Christ, it is an explanation of what you can have and do, now, in your life. And, as the "end of days" grows nearer, and the falling away from Yahweh occurs, and apostasy increases, these gifts will become more manifest in Christians, and more important in our collective battle against evil and moral corruption.

     We should all seek to receive the Spiritual Gifts Yahweh desires each of us to have, and we should use them. If you are not a "born again" Christian, and are not a Charismatic Christian (one who has and uses Yahweh's Spiritual Gifts) then take the next step in your Christian walk, and seek and ask to become "born again" and receive your Spiritual Gift. 1 Cor. 14:7 states, "To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good." Yahweh has a Spiritual Gift for you. Have you asked for and been given it? Are you using it? You should be, for it is given "for the common good" of the Christian church. If you are (or want to be) part of "the body of Christ" then you should be using the gift Yahweh has for you.

T.r. Michels

[trmichels]

A Triune God

The Christian understanding that Yahweh has a triune nature, that Yahweh is in fact a Holy Trinity, has been part of the Christian church since shortly after Jesus was crucified. Evidence of this can be seen as far back as 50 AD. Following are some references from first and second century writers:

50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript. "She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus'] hair when He sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God (Jesus, TR), aware of this, said to them: 'Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me] . . . Then one of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priest and said, 'What will you give me for my work?' [Matt. 26:7-15]" (Huleatt fragments 1-3)

74 AD The Letter of Barnabas. "And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, He being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,' understand how it was that He endured to suffer at the hand of men" (Letter of Barnabas 5).  God says to Jesus, "Let us" wherein He confirms the plurality of Himself.   

80 AD Hermas. "The Son of God is older than all his creation, so that He became the Father's adviser in his creation. Therefore also He is ancient." (The Shepherd 12)

140 AD Aristides. "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit." (Apology 16)   

513 AD Fulgence of Ruspe. "See, in short you have it that the Father is one, the Son another, and the Holy Spirit another; in person, each is other, but in nature they are not other. In this regard He [Christ] says, `The Father and I, we are one' [John 10:30]. He teaches us that 'one' refers to their nature and 'we are' to their persons. In like manner it is said, 'There are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one.' [1John 5:7] Let Sabellius hear 'we are,' let him hear 'three,' and let him believe that there are three Persons." (The Trinity 4:1)

553 AD Council of Constantinople II. "If anyone does not confess that there are two generations of the Word of God, one from the Father before all ages, without time and incorporeally, the other in the last days when the same (Jesus) came down from heaven and was incarnate . . . let such a one be anathema." (Anathemas Concerning the Three Chapters, canon 2)

1200 AD The Athanasian Creed. "The Father is not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made or created, but begotten. . . . Let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he Faithfully believe also in the Incarnation . . . He (Jesus) is God begotten of the substance of the Father before time, and He is man born of the substance of his mother in time. . . . This is the Catholic Faith (Catholic in this case meaning "universal" TR); unless everyone believes this Faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." 

Yahweh Sabaoth, I fervently pray that all those who read this receive the most precious Gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift that must come before all other gifts, the Gift of Faith in you. I also ask that those who are not "born again" of water and the Holy Spirit, be born again; and I ask that they seek, ask for, receive and use the Gifts of the Holy Spirit you have for them. I ask this in the name of the Lord God Jesus Christ. Amen.

I ask that you all pray that prayer with me.

I love you all, your servant in Christ,

T.R.



What is the Word?

Although what I discuss here may be common knowledge to many people, it is writing that came to me as a divine revelation from Yahweh between the hours of 2 and 4 AM on October 6, 2005; and it made clear to me what I had not totally understood before. 

(beginning of Yahweh inspired writing)

The Bible is often referred to as "the Word of God". Jesus is also referred to as "the Word of God". Matthew 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Matthew 1:14 states, "The Word became flesh …" The Israelites often expressed their encounters with Yahweh as seeing the "face of God" or as seeing "the angel of God". Christians refer to this material "bodily" form of Yahweh as "Jesus". We can therefore assume that "the angel of God" and Jesus are the same thing, although they may not look exactly alike. Or they could look exactly alike, or similar. Either way, it is safe to assume that Jacob, Moses and Daniel would recognize Jesus as Yahweh.

    Yahweh also expresses himself in the material form of the Bible, so the Bible is "the word of God". He also expressed himself throughout history in the visible, material (incarnate) form of Himself in a human body. So, what is "the Word?" The "Word" is the "expression" of Yahweh in a physical form. It is His means of communicating His "thoughts" to us in a material form (as opposed to communicating to us by "inspiring" or communicating his thoughts directly to our minds through the Holy Spirit).

Who is God the Holy Spirit?         

Once I began to understand that "the Word" is the expression of Yahweh's thoughts to us in a material way I suddenly understood that the Holy Spirit is Yahweh's way of doing something; whether it be doing something to anything in the universe (as in creation), or doing something to us, or through us. Examples of Yahweh doing something to us are giving us the Spiritual Gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as giving us the Gift of Faith; performing a miracle in our lives; our "hearing or sensing" Yahweh's voice in our mind; our "feeling or sensing" Yahweh's presence around or in us. Examples of Yahweh doing something through us are when the Holy Spirit gives us the Gift of Prophecy, or allows us to heal others or perform miracles. In John 14:16, Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as a "Paraclete" a Greek term meaning "intercessor" or "counselor" which explains exactly what the Holy Spirit is; "the Holy Spirit" is Yahweh "interceding" in our lives.   

Who is God the Father?

     Realizing this helped me to understand the concept of the Holy Trinity, which we often refer to as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. But, I then had to ask my self who "God the Father" was. If "the Word" is the visible, material being of Yawheh and/or His thoughts; and the "Holy Spirit" is the feeling or intercession of Yahweh in our lives; then "God the Father" must be the  "conscious being" of Yahweh, the "essence", the private non-communicated thoughts of Yahweh if you will; with the word God or the Hebrew term Yahweh being the collective term for "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit". The word Yahweh has been interpreted as "I am, who am" or "I am the Alpha and the Omega," which in Greek means "I am the first and the last, I am everything and I am complete in myself." Yahweh is the term we use to describe everything that is our God.

As I wrote this I remembered a prophecy of Isaiah regarding Jesus, and a comment I had made on it on one of Christian talk forums I authored on the Internet, in which I was explaining why I believe in the Holy Trinity, and why I believe Jesus is God. Here is what I had written two years earlier:

     Isaiah 9:6 states, "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". I don't see any way to interpret that but that the "Mighty God, Everlasting Father" and the "Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace", are one and the same. And I see no way to interpret the "Mighty God" as anything but Yahweh, and the "Everlasting Father" as anything but God the Father.

     "He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." What is particularly interesting about this verse is the way in which it is written. The two names associated with Jesus (Prince of Peace) and the Holy Spirit (Wonderful Counselor) surround the two names associated with Yahweh (Mighty God) and God the Father (Everlasting Father). The intent and the inspiration of God, and the writer, are quite clear; the Father is one and the same as, and one with, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, who are collectively known as Yahweh.

(end of inspired writing)

As I reread that post I could once again see that Yahweh does inspire me to write what I write; and that He intercedes in my writing (through the Spiritual Gifts of the Holy Spirit) and makes (or allows) me to use my Spiritual Gifts of Wisdom and Knowledge when I write on the subject of Christianity or the Bible. In this instance, He also revealed this information to me about Himself, so that I could understand it. It leaves me with a feeling of humility, because I don't believe I am personally wise enough or knowledgeable enough to have understood and known what that prophecy of Isaiah meant, or that I was wise enough to explain it. I didn't even fully comprehend the wisdom of what I had written then, or all that I have written here, until just now.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!

[trmichels]

You are entitled to your opinion. Several people have received divine inspiratin, and divine revelation from Yahweh. Several people who know me, know I have and use Charismatic gifts.

Why should my writings be included in the canon of the Catholic church? They have not been reviewed by the church, and aren't likely to be.

Don't you belive Yahweh can talk to (inspire) anyone he likes? Has he never spoken to you?

If you don't believe in a triune god named Yahweh, then you must not be Catholic, or even a Christian, because a Christian is one who adheres to the Nicene reed.

Here is another article from the book.


What is a Christian?

In 2004 I discovered (and it may have been foreshadowed in the Bible by calling Satan the "deceiver") that we can no longer use the Nicene Creed as a description and definition of a Christian to all of those who call themselves Christians. As I have often pointed out, just saying you are a Christian does not make you a Christian. And if we have people who are not Christian, who are purposely or not purposely misleading us, we may be in trouble. Mind you, I am just pondering the possibilities, because I think it is important to the salvation of those around us, to those we talk to, those we teach, and those who come after us.

     The topics on "Is Jesus God?" and "Is the Bible the Inspired Word of God?" on my Internet talk forum led me to the question "What is a Christian?" To understand what a Christian is, or should be, we must first understand what the Christian Faith is. The Christian Faith is based on the belief that there is only one true God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all being one, in the Godhead of the Holy Trinity. The following is a quote from the Catholic Catechism:

"The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian Faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of Faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the 'hierarchy of the truths of Faith.' The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men 'and reconciles and unites with himself in those who turn away from sin.'"

If you don't totally agree with the above quote, it is time to get out your Bible and do dome serious reading, and some serious research. John 1:1-14 states it very clearly. (What are you waiting for, get out your Bible and read it.) If those verses don't make it clear to you read John 10:30: "The Father and I are one." That, I personally believe, puts the nail in the cross so to speak. Jesus is one in being with the Father and the Holy Spirit, in the Holy Trinity.

To put things into perspective, the god Allah of the Muslims is not the god Yahweh of the Christians, because the Muslims  do not believe Jesus is the human manifestation of God, one in being with the Father, in the one Godhead of the Holy Trinity. The following is from the web site of The Institute of Islamic Information and Education:

Chapter 112 of the Qu'ran states:

Islam rejects characterizing God in any human form or depicting Him as favoring certain individuals or nations on the basis of wealth, power or race. He created the human beings as equals. They may distinguish themselves and get His favor through virtue and piety only.
     The concept that God rested in the seventh day of creation, that God wrestled with one of His soldiers, that God is an envious plotter against mankind, or that God is incarnate in any human being are considered blasphemy from the Islamic point of view.

It also states:   
"People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him - (He is) above having a son." (4:171)

One of the reasons I mention this is because if you are a "Jesus is God, one in being with the Father" Christian, it is important to the salvation of your soul to understand that the word "God" does not mean the same thing to all people because Allah is not Yahweh. In this time of Christian apathy, with the political-correctness of tolerance and acceptance of other non-Christian religions and the "Jesus is not God, one in being with the Father" Christians, we Christians (who do believe Jesus is one in being with the Father) need to be very careful not to accept the beliefs of those religions/denominations. We also need to be careful not to allow our ignorance, misinterpretation or misunderstanding of basic Christian dogma and belief, or political correctness, to corrupt the above stated truth of Christianity, that is, if you want to stay true to that definition of Christianity.

    All we have to do to realize the outcome of corrupted or co-mingled Christian and non-Christian religious beliefs is look at the book of Revelations. This book alludes to the "False Prophet" who many people believe may be the leader of a religion, incorporating the beliefs of many of the world's religions, Christian and non-Christian alike.

(Note: I preface this with an if.) If the belief of the "Jesus is God, one in being with the Father" Christians is correct, it means that the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet will deceive those who have no Christian (religious) Faith, deceive those who may not be strong in their Christian Faith, deceive those who accept the beliefs of the "Jesus is not God" (false) Christians, and deceive the non-Christians into believing the Anti-Christ is a god. The "False Prophet" will then insist that every human being who accepts him as a god to be branded on the right hand or forehead with the "mark of the beast" (mark of Satan). 

     Unless people have this brand they will not be allowed to buy or sell anything. That's quite the punishment for not following the teachings of this "False Prophet" and his god Satan. But, the punishment, by Yahweh, for allowing this brand to be placed on them is even worse; the sword of the "Rider" will kill them. Most Christians interpret this Rider as Jesus, and the sword as his voice or vocal command.


Christian Dogma

The dogma, the central belief of Christianity, is the Nicene Creed. In the early 300's AD the leaders of the Christian church were called together in Nicaea by Emperor Constantine. This meeting is referred to as the "Council of Nicaea". The purpose of this meeting was to define the central beliefs of the entire Christian church. One of the doctrines that came out of that meeting was the "Nicene Creed" or Christian "Statement of Faith". About the creed a Presbyterian web site states: A creed is a summary of Christian Faith written by the church in order to confess clearly what it believes. The Nicene Creed was originally written in 325 AD (in Greek, TR) when the Roman Emperor Constantine called together the Council of Nicaea (in Asia Minor, TR) to address the fragmented character of the Christian church -- a church fragmented primarily because of disputes over whether or not Jesus Christ was fully God. It was expanded to the current text at Constantinople in 381 AD. The contemporary translation of the Nicene Creed adopted by the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) was completed by an ecumenical body, the English Language Liturgical Consultation in 1987.

(end quote)

Ecumenical means "universal", as in a large number of different churches/denominations.
The Christian Nicene Creed

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day He rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The words "of one Being with the Father", "one in Being with the Father", "being of one substance with the Father", "of the same essence as the Father", meaning that Jesus is the same as God, are found in this very same creed in the Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Methodist, Calvinist, Christian Reformed, United Church of Christ, Free Reformed, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Armenian, and Orthodox Church of America. 

Proceed from ther father means he is one with Yahweh, part of the triune Yahweh.

One web site states:

"The Nicene Creed is the most widely accepted and used brief statement of the Christian Faith. In liturgical churches, it is said every Sunday as part of the Liturgy. It is Common Ground to East Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, and many other Christian groups. Many groups that do not have a tradition of using it in their services nevertheless are committed to the doctrines it teaches."

So, what is a Christian?

1. If the definition of a Christian is "one who believes in the God of Abraham" then Jews and Muslims could be considered as Christians, because they believe in the God of Abraham.

2. If the definition of a Christian is "one who believes Jesus was the Messiah sent by God" then Jews and Christians could be considered as Christians. But, Muslims could not be considered Christians, because they don't believe Jesus was God.

3. If the definition of a Christian is "one who believes Jesus is God" or "Jesus is God incarnate" then Jews, Muslims and those who believe Jesus is only the "human son" of God could not be considered Christians, because they don't believe Jesus is God.

4. If the definition of a Christian is "one who believes in the Holy Trinity, but not that Jesus is the same as the Father" then Jews, Muslims and those Christian denominations and individuals that do not believe "Jesus is one in being with the Father" could not be considered Christians, because they don't believe Jesus is part of the Holy Trinity with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. 

5. If the definition of a Christian is "one who believes Jesus is God, one in being with the Father and the Holy Spirit, in the unity of the one Godhead of the Holy Trinity, who is the God (Yahweh) of Abraham" then those who believe that could be considered as Christians, but those who do not believe that could not be considered Christians.

As we can see, a person's personal definition of what a Christian believes often determines whether or not they consider themselves Christians, or whether or not they consider others as Christians. The question then arises, "Does each person have the right to define their own description of what a Christian is?" Unfortunately, or fortunately, the vast majority of the Christian Church defines a Christian as #5.

 
May Yahweh bless you and show you His truth, not mine, not yours,

T.R.
 

[trmichels]

Frank,

You cite John 14. The verses there make it clear that the Holy Spirit (nor matter how yoyu interpret the noun) is separate from Jesus and the Father. "the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will instruct you in eveything ..." (NAB)

This agrees with the divine revelation I had; and I had not really looked at that verse until today.

In this case the Bible substantiates Yahweh's revelation to me, which it must because it is the "Word of Yahweh" a physical manifestation of him/his thoughts; as opposed to the "action" of Yahweh as the third person of the triunity we refer to as Yahweh, which/who is the entity of the Holy Spirit.

We should all pray that the Holy Spirit instructs us in everything.

May God bless you, and show you his truth, not mine, not yours,

T.R.   

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!

[trmichels]

The scriptures were first recognized as inspired scriptures when they were accepted as Canon by the Catholic church, so how can you say, "Nothing but false doctrine comes from the Catholic church." Either you accept Scriptural doctrine as it came from the Catholic church, or you don't accept Scriptural doctrine - they are one and the same in the majority of cases. 
 

And, as I said, if you don't beleive Jesus is Yahweh, and the Holy Spirit is Yahweh, separate but part of Yahweh, then you are probably not conidered a Christian by other Christians.   

I guess if you don't accept the Creed of the Christian church, then you can't be expected to understand the concept ot the Holy Trinity.

Are you a "born again"? or Charismatic? 


T.R.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!

[trmichels]

You ought to read what I posted earlier:

The Bible is often referred to as "the Word of God". Jesus is also referred to as "the Word of God". Matthew 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Matthew 1:14 states, "The Word became flesh …" The Israelites often expressed their encounters with Yahweh as seeing the "face of God" or as seeing "the angel of God". Christians refer to this material "bodily" form of Yahweh as "Jesus". We can therefore assume that "the angel of God" and Jesus are the same thing, although they may not look exactly alike. Or they could look exactly alike, or similar. Either way, it is safe to assume that Jacob, Moses and Daniel would recognize Jesus as Yahweh.

(end quote)

That clearly states that Jesus is Yahweh-God, which is my belief.

 
None of the scriptures were considered as CANON by the Christian church until they were accepted as such by the Christian church, and the only Christian church there was up until about the 14th century was the Catholic church.

Maybe you mean to use a different term than "canon".

Encyc. Brittanica defines canon law as:

Latin jus canonicum body of laws made within certain Christian churches (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, independent churches of Eastern Christianity, and the Anglican Communion) by lawful ecclesiastical authority for the government of both the whole church and parts thereof and of the behaviour and actions of individuals.


Obvioulsy you've been led astray.


May Yahweh show you His truth

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!

[trmichels]

I'll leave you with this, I've learned that those whose ears have been closed refuse to hear.

This is part of a thread from one of the other forums I Author and Moderate on.

     When Moses went up Mt. Sinai the first time God told him, I am "YAHWEH", the God of your ancestor Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, ... This is my name for all time, and thus I am to be invoked for all generations to come." (Ex. 3:15) Then, when Moses received the Ten commandments from God, God told him in no uncertain terms that He YAHWEH was to be their only God, that there were no other gods, that they were to worship no other gods, and they were to worship only YAHWEH. In Deuteronomy 6:4 Moses himself confirms there is only one God when He states, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." From this time forward the Hebrews, and subsequently the Israelites, the Jews and the Christians, believed there was only one god, Yahweh.

     Jesus himself, when He quotes Psalm 110:1 leads us to understand that he, Jesus, is God. "How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? David Himself speaking by the Holy Spirit declared: 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under my feet."'

     Jesus quotes this Psalm and states: "David himself calls him (Yahweh) Lord. How then can He (Yahweh in the person of Jesus) be his son?" In this statement Jesus is explaining that He (Jesus) is not only a descendant of David, but that He is also "Lord". Moses clearly states that God (Yahweh) is only "one", therefore these cannot be two different gods -the only conclusion we can come to is that Jesus is God.       
       
Unfortunately, for some people, the question still remains, "Is Jesus God?" The answers can be found in the Bible.

One poster wrote: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth." "The word was God...the Word was made flesh". What more can be said. There it is...straight from the inspired Bible! God is God. Jesus Christ is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Godhead is made up of 3 persons, hence the word "Trinity". Some things simply cannot be understood nor accepted by men until God has opened their eyes to see His truth.

     Way back in Genesis 1:26, the Bible declares "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." You see, that was written thousands of years before Jesus was born as the Son of God to a woman in Bethlehem. But notice the usage of the plural words "us" and "our". That is because the triune God was there...God in 3 persons. It was Not 3 Gods.

     The first chapter of John's Gospel shows very clearly who Jesus Christ is. Since these things remain a mystery to some, perhaps these verses will shed further light on the matter. 1 Tim. 3:16 (KJV) "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." That verse is speaking of Jesus Christ. God manifest in flesh! Surely, that verse teaches that Jesus is God.

     Phil. 2:6-8 (KJV) "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Again, a verse about Jesus, the God-man ... in the form of God ... equal with God. As I have shown, the Bible repeatedly says there is one God! How can Jesus be equal with God when there is only one God? The answer is clear to Christians ... Jesus is God!

I then added this: The Greek word for God used in 1 Timothy 3:16 is theos, which is translated as "the divinity" or "the supreme being". The Greek word for manifest used in 1 Timothy 3:16 is phaneroo, which is interpreted as appear, or show (self), to render apparent, declare. There can be no doubt that what is meant is that God himself appeared in the flesh. If the God of this quote was not Jesus, then who was it?

The poster added this: Israelites 1:1-14 (notice what God Himself says to and about Christ) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person ... 5] For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son? [6] And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. [7] And of the angels He saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. [8] But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom. [9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. [10] And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: [11] They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; [12] And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

     Col. 2:1-23 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; [2] That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; [3] In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. [4] And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. [5] For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the steadfastness of your Faith in Christ. [6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: [7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the Faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. [9] For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

     John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I added this: This is a prophecy of Isaiah regarding Jesus the Christ. (Isaiah 9:6) "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". I don't see any way to interpret that but that the "Mighty God, Everlasting Father" and the "Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace", are one and the same. "And I see no way to interpret the "Mighty God" and the "Everlasting Father" as anything but Yahweh.

     "… He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". What is particularly interesting about this verse is the way in which it is written. The two names associated with Jesus (Prince of Peace) and the Holy Spirit (Wonderful Counselor) surround the two names associated with God the Father (Mighty God) and Yahweh (Everlasting Father). The intent, and the inspiration, of God and the writer are quite clear. The Father is one and the same as, and one with, Jesus.

     Now let's look at the words of the Hebrew passage. The words used to describe Jesus, are the words of God. "by whom also He (Jesus) made the worlds;" Here God the Father makes it clear that Jesus made the universe.

In Genesis 1:1 it states, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth ..." If there is only one God, then the only way God the Father and Jesus could both make the universe is if they are one and the same God (YAHWEH).

"the express image of his (God's) person" Here God says Jesus is the express image of God.

"the first begotten into the world" Here God says Jesus is the firstborn of the earth, which means Jesus "was" before Adam and Eve had their first child.

"unto the Son He (God) saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever" Here God calls Jesus "God". So, unless there is more than one God, Jesus is God.

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:" Here God says Jesus laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens. If God (YAHWEH) laid the foundation of earth and heaven, the only way Jesus could have laid the foundation of earth and heaven is if Jesus is God (YAHWEH).

The poster wrote: Matthew quoted Isaiah 7:14 when he wrote his gospel. But the Bible goes even further in that verse... it defines the word "Immanuel". It is a very significant definition. Matthew 1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel", which means, "God with us".

I added: The Greek word for Immanuel in both Isaiah and Matthew is Immanuw'el, which means "with us is God". The Hebrew word el, which is part of Emmanuel (as we have seen), means God. Can there be any doubt that Jesus is God?

I then added this: We are re-hashing the same question as that before the Council of Nicaea 1600+ years ago. And now we can see why they came to the conclusion they came to, Jesus is one in being with the Father and the Holy Spirit, in the one Godhead of the Holy Trinity. 1 Timothy 3:16, states, "God was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by the angels; preached among the Gentiles, Believed in throughout the world, taken up into glory". The Greek word for God, used here, is theos, which is translated as "the divinity" or "the supreme being". The Greek word for manifest is phaneroo, which is interpreted as appear, or shew/show (self), to render apparent, declare. There can be no doubt that what is meant is that God made himself flesh. If the God of this quote was not Jesus, then who was it?

The poster added: "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord He is God; there is none else beside him. (Deuteronomy 4:35)

"Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? Ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God: I know not any". (Isaiah 44:6,8)

"I and my Father are one." (Jesus speaking). (John 10:30)
"For thou shalt worship no other god; for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: (Exodus 34:14)

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever." (Israelites 13:
"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." (Psalms 33:6)

"Through Faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (Israelites 11:3)

"And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." (Revelation 19:13)

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, even in his son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." (I John 5:20)

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Phillip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" (John 14:9)

"Come near unto Me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and His Spirit, hath sent Me." (Isaiah 48:16)  Who is speakinghere? Go back to verse twelve. Hearken unto Me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am He; I am the first, I am also the last." Who is the Alpha and Omega of Revelation? Jesus Christ. So we know who the speaker is. It is Jesus Christ, the Creator (v. 13). "Mine hand has also laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spread out the heavens, when I call unto them, they stand up together". So we know it is the Lord Jesus Christ speaking.

     Other passages to note are Matthew 3, where Jesus is being baptized, the Spirit descending like a dove and the Father¹s voice saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." All of them are there, all of them are present at the same time at the same scene. There are people who say, "We don¹t believe in the Trinity - once He was the Father, then He became the Son and now He is the Spirit." How can you explain all three of them at the baptism at the same time? In Romans 8:9 they are all there. In I Corinthians 12 they are all there. In II Corinthians 13 they are all there. In Ephesians four they are all there. So we believe in the Trinity. It's a very important doctrine.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!

[trmichels]

Know we are getting to it. I can see by your questions that Yahweh wants you here asking questions, about Yahweh, so we (all of us here) can try to explain it and help you understand it, becaue Yahweh wans you to believe in Him.
 

When you raise an argument or comment on a subject, you should do a little research first, and TRY to look at it from both sides, so you have some undestanding.

Yahweh is made up of three parts, God the Father (the essence of Yahweh), God the Holy Spirit (the active part of Yahweh), God the Son (the physical human form of Yahweh, born of a human woman, yet concieved by the Holy Spirit, of Yahweh).

The human form was crucified (by non-Christians) and died, so that Yahweh could bring Jesus back to life (which he did) to show/prove (non-Christians, pagans etc.) that He (Yahweh) is the one and only god we Christians and Jews refer to as Yahweh).


May Yahweh bless you and open your mind,

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!

[trmichels]

I don't have time to go look at othet sites, I have other people to take care of, and a business to run.

Maybe you should e-mail Meoldy and ask her to taek me off the Testimonies list she has, and see how that goes! 

Yahweh Himself has told me there are three "parts" (if you will), that make up Yahweh. I belive Him.

Obviously you don't understand everything, and we dont' agree.

So, I'm done. I will not respond anymore.

God bless,

T.R. 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!

[Satish]

Hi Frank

It seems that you have just put aside or ignored the verses that Seeker had mentioned from the Bible which shows the distinction between the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit:

Joh 14:16  And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever:
Joh 14:17  The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you.

This “other” Paraclete shows distinction from and relation to both Father and Son.

Joh 14:26  But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

Can it be any clearer than this?

God Bless!
Satish

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!

[Rev. Eric]

Greetings to Frank, and greetings to the other members of the Glorify God Community.  It has been quite awhile since I've posted here.

Frank, I will now address this topic concerning the Holy Spirit as a Divine Person.  As I am a Catholic priest and am defending Catholic teaching on a Catholic forum, I will do so in a Catholic manner.

What God has revealed to all of humanity is called the Deposit of Faith.  This includes what God wants us to know about him, our relationships with him, as well as our relationship with one another.  Part of the Desposit of Faith has been recorded in Sacred Scripture, referring to both the Old and New Testament.  The remainder is referred to as Sacred Tradition.  Furthermore, God has empowered the Magisterium of the Catholic Church to be the sole interpreter of the Deposit of Faith.  This refers to the teaching office of the Church, in other words the Pope and the bishops in union with him in making official pronouncements concerning matters of faith and morals.  Only the Magisterium has this authority, with which comes the guaranteed guidance of the Holy Spirit not to err in defining doctrine and dogma.

The doctrine of the Holy Spirit being the Second Person of the Divine Trinity is firmly established in Sacred Tradition.  Although it is implied in Scripture (as others have shown in their posts), the Church has never said that it is clearly presented in the Bible.  But, for Catholics, it does not have to be.  It is enough that it is presented in Sacred Tradition and defined by the Magisterium.

Many people assume that the Holy Spirit is a personal entity, based on references to the Spirit as "he," "him" and "himself" in the New Testament.

I can't speak for other Christians, but Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is a personal entity because he told us so in the Deposit of Faith, as defined by his guidance of the Magisterium.  If the Bible had no personal pronouns referring to the Holy Spirit, we would still have the doctrine describing him as a divine person.

The basis of your argument is that the Church's doctrine concerning the Holy Spirit is not found in Sacred Scripture.  As you put it:

My argument is that the "Holy Spirit" of Yahweh is not a SEPERATE person and that there is no doctrine of a "Holy Trinity taught or explained in Scripture. You have not proven that the "Holy Spirit" is a SEPERATE person or that any of the doctrines of men concerning a "Holy Trinity" is taught or explained in Scripture. "Holy Trinity, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, Eternal Son, and a pre-existant son" are but mere doctrines of men and are not teachings inSPIRed by Father Yahweh. These docrtines are simply not sound words from Father Yahweh, but are mere "private interpretation" of which no prophecy of Scripture should be of.

Although you have not used the term Sola Scriptura, your are presenting it as a doctrine that has to be adhered to.  In other words, you are stating that a doctrine must be clearly presented in Scripture in order to be valid.  Here are just a few problems with Sola Scriptura:

1)  It is not a Catholic Doctrine, so why should Catholics be expected to follow it?
2)  It rejects Sacred Tradition, which the Bible tells us not to do:
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." 
(2Thes 2:15; RSV)

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us."  (2Thes 3:6; RSV)

"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.  (1Cor 11:2; RSV)
What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you."  (Col 4:9; RSV)

3)  The Bible itself does not teach the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura.  No where does it state that Scriptrue is the only source of doctrine.  Therefore, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura contains a paradox because it is an extra-biblical doctrine that teaches us to reject extra-biblical doctrines.
 
Of course, you probably object to point #3 because you have attempted to demonstrate that the Bible does, indeed, teach Sola Scriptura.  For example, you quoted from 2 Timothy 3:16.  Here is the full passage from the RSV:

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

First I would like to point out that Paul does not say "Only Scripture" is profitable.

Furthermore, Paul cannot be telling us that only Scripture is profitable in this manner, because of the statements he gave concerning Tradition, which I have quoted above. 

But some people interpret this passage as saying that Scripture makes one "complete, equipped for every good work" and because it makes one "complete" we should not accept any doctrines not found in the Bible.  After all, if it is complete, why add to it?  But there is a problem with this interpretation.  In 2 Cor 9:8 Paul tells us that it is the blessings of God that provides "in abundance for every good work."  So how can he say that God's blessings provide for "every good work" and at the same time say that only Scripture provides for the same thing?  Certainly we get blessings outside of Scripture, don't we?

Furthermore, while considering the quote you gave us from 2 Tim, let us also examine something else Paul stated in that exact same letter.  In 2 Tim 2:21, Paul states that we will be "ready for any good work" by being purified from what is ignoble.  In the following verses he tells Timothy just how to do that, by shunning youthful passions and aiming at righteousness, faith, love, and peace and having nothing to do with senseless controversies.  He does not mention Scripture here.  So in his letters Paul speaks about the importance of being equipped/ready for "every good work" but mentions means other than Scripture for achieving this.  Therefore, Paul cannot be saying that only Scripture does this.

In light of this, here is my interpretation of 2 Tim 3:16.  What actually makes us complete for every good work is teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness.  Toward this end, Scripture is "profitable" for such things, but not Scripture alone.  For example, Scripture is indeed "profitable" for "training in righteousness", but so are the aspects of achieving purity that Paul described in 2 Tim 2:21ff.

And now let me examine another of your statements, concerning 2 Tim 3:16:

When the above was written the Catholic Church was not even in existence then. In fact, this passage when referring to 'scripture' was not even in reference to the so called "New Testament" since these writings and letters were not even compiled till a much later date.

Actually the Catholic Church existed before Paul became a Christian, let alone wrote his epistles.  The Catholic Church finds its origins in Jesus and the Apostles (Matthew 16:17-19).

I agree that Paul was referring to the Old Testament in 2 Tim.  After all, he was referring to the Scriptures that Timothy had known "from childhood" (2:15), so that rules out the New Testament.  This of, of course, does nothing to disrupt my above interpretation.

If you have any other reasons why we should accept only Scripture as a source of doctrine then please post them and I will be happy to continue this discussion.

God bless,
Rev. Eric

[DavidFilmer]

Hi, Rev.Eric and everyone – it has also been a while since I have posted here. Rev.Eric sent me an e-mail suggesting I might find this thread interesting, and thought I might like to respond.

The good Father was mistaken, but his mistake was due to his trusting nature.  One of the reasons that my participation here waned is that I got tired of seeing folks responding (in good faith).

And, indeed, another visit to this forum seems unfortunately familiar, with a long post from Frank4YAHWEH which is largely taken from a booklet called "Who is God" by Karen Armstrong (read it here: http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/WG/isgodatrinity.htm). 

Consider that Frank – err, I mean, Ms. Armstrong, attempts to build a statement of doctrine on the peculiarities of the Greek language.  It is true that the Greek word for “spirit” is not fully adequate to express the Christian idea of the Holy Spirit.  The fact that Greek writers were constrained by the limitations of their language is hardly a basis (or even a factor) for making doctrinal postulates.

When Frank is able to form and express a cogent opinion (of his own, that is) then maybe I will be motivated to reply.  In the meantime, I thank Rev.Eric for his e-mail and his invitation, but I must respectfully decline further participation.

(The phrase “standing on the sholders of giants” (in Latin: pigmaei gigantum humeris impositi plusquam ipsi gigantes vident), is commonly attributed to Bernard of Chartres in the 12th Century, although it is often incorrectly attributed to Isaac Newton. Frank may learn here a lesson in how to attribute ideas and expressions which he did not originate.)

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am not a thief!