Are the sacraments necessary for salvation?

[Ayodhya Nath Bhat]

The Sacraments Save
Are the sacraments necessary for salvation?

"The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation." Pg. 292, #1129

What are the sacraments?:

"There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony." Pg. 289, #1113

These seven sacraments are nothing more than a series of good works. As we have already seen in previous chapters, the Bible states repeatedly that good works will never save anybody:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight..." Romans 3:20  

Here is what God thinks of our good works:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags..." Isaiah 64:6  

Must one be a Catholic to be saved?

Since the sacraments are supposedly necessary for salvation, and since the sacraments are only available through the Catholic church, then obviously, one must be a faithful member of the Catholic church to be saved.

Though you will never hear a spokesperson for Catholicism admit it, this is exactly what this Catholic doctrine purports.

I ask you again, can you accept that everyone outside the Catholic church will burn forever in hell?

Traditions of men

Please understand, these sacraments, which the Catholic church contends are necessary for salvation, did not even come from God. They are man-made rules which have been handed down through generations.

So when you perform them, you are not obeying God, you are obeying the traditions of men.

One must wonder, under such conditions, if these sacraments are really necessary, or if the Catholic church is using man's traditions to scare people into lifelong obedience to the church, under the threat of eternal damnation.

Salvation: through Christ or sacraments?

If sacraments are necessary for salvation, why does God's Word proclaim the following?

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31

Paul, the Apostle, delivered these sobering words on the subject:

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

Catholic friend: do you believe that good works like the sacraments are necessary for salvation? Do you consider it foolishness to believe that salvation can only be obtained through faith in Christ' s work on the cross? If so, God's Word warns that you will perish in hell.

When Jesus declared that salvation came only through Him, not only was He telling the truth, He was repeating what He heard from the Father:

"But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God..." John 8:40  

To suggest that Jesus is wrong is to suggest that the Father is wrong, as well. Jesus goes on to explain why people refuse to believe His Words:

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." John 8:47

To accept this Catholic doctrine, you must refuse to hear God's Words. Jesus said that if you can do this, then you are not of God.

Are you sure, beyond any shadow of a doubt, Roman Catholic friend, that you are of God?

Are you willing to turn your back on God's Word to accept man's words. If you can, you have reason for grave concern:

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29

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[Seeker]

Please friends, correct me if anything in my reply to Ayodhya is wrong.

Ayodhya,

These seven sacraments are nothing more than a series of good works.

Not true.  Catholics believe that Christ is acting in the sacraments and they are an effective means of receiving sanctifying grace by His power.  However, how the sacraments bear fruit within a particular individual is dependent on the faith and disposition of that particular person.

Please understand, these sacraments, which the Catholic church contends are necessary for salvation, did not even come from God. They are man-made rules which have been handed down through generations.

Not true.  The sacraments all have a Scriptural basis and we believe they were instituted by Christ himself.

Salvation: through Christ or sacraments?

This assumes its one or the other.  As explained above, for a Catholic, Christ acts in the sacraments.  So the sacraments become a means of salvation through Christ.

One more note, I commend you for presenting these arguments against the Catholic Church so we can reply to them.  I think most of these come from "Understanding Roman Catholicism" by Rick Jones.  If so, I'm sure you're aware by now that this book is really misnamed.  It's not designed to help one understand Roman Catholicism.  It doesn't present the real beliefs of Roman Catholicism so that you can make an informed decision.  It's purpose is to disprove Roman Catholicism, and it does this with half-truths and opinion.  Loraine Boettner's book "Roman Catholicism" is a little better research-wise, but still has a lot of "facts" in it that are just plain incorrect.   To really understand Roman Catholicism, or any religion for that matter, read about it straight from the horse's mouth, not just from their enemies.  Then make your own decision as to whether the beliefs are correct or not.  But then, I guess that's probably why you're here posting the points you come across.

I believe it's a sign of the Spirit moving in you that you present these arguments and allow us to present the other side of the story about Catholicism.  A lot of well meaning non-Catholic Christians take attacks on Catholic beliefs at face value either because they do not have time to search out the truth, are lazy, or really want to believe the lies or half-truths they hear about Catholicism.

I pray that God may bless you throughout your life Ayodhya.  Keep on posting!  Thanks for the opportunity to present the truth.  

[cfcoelho]

Dear Seeker,

Congratulations to such a great response to Ayodhya's posting.I have been reading his postings with mixed feelings, but if we look beyond his intentions, he seems to be a confused Christian searching all over for the truth.May be with the responses he gets from all of us , he may end up as a Born Again Catholic.
We all have one thing in common, we love our Lord Jesus tremendously-and thats what really counts.

Well done Seeker.


Colin

[Seeker]

Dear Colin,

Thank you for your kind words.  I agree, when you get down to it, it's all about loving Jesus and loving each other as He loves us.  Scripture, especially the First Letter of John, has made this especially clear to me.

God Bless!

[Ayodhya Nath Bhat]

Seeker,

You have cleverly taken only part of select passages to distort the topic and please the papists.Not fair, though some will commend you for your response.Nothing is more true than the fear you are under if you defy the papists.Take a cue from the millions of Catholics who have turned their back on papists of the Catholic Church and  decided to follow God.

I am eagerly waiting for responses from Tina,Rev Eric and Melody on this spicy topic.  

Come on Guys prove me wrong.

A N Bhat

[tklein1014]

I didn't reply because seeker pretty much said it all.  Your point seems to be that salvation is through Christ, and we agree on that.  The disagreement seems to be that you don't believe that the Lord is present in/works through the sacraments, and Catholics do.

Keeping in mind that I'm not a theologian, and am no where near an expert, I don't think there's a way I can "prove you wrong" because that would take faith on your part - you'd have to believe (as we do), that Christ works through sacraments.  I can't prove it to you, I'm sorry.  I'll try illustrating it for you here, but keep in mind I'm not an expert & may need to be corrected...

Baptism - Old life (BC ;-)) dying, being "reborn again" in the spirit.  All past sins, personal & original are forgiven & your spirit is wiped clean to begin a new life in Christ.  I'll venture a guess to say that I'm probably one of the few ones here who remembers being baptised.  I have to tell you, it was an amazing experience.  They didn't sprinkle water on me, I was DUNKED.  Anyhow, I felt bathed in light, there was light all around me, even when my eyes were closed.  Anyhow, to Catholics, this isn't "good works", this is Christ forgiving, cleaning, & saving.

Confirmation - Here you formally reject Satan & commit your life to Christ.  Here you are also formally accepted as a church member.  I don't really look at this as being a "good work" either, just kind of my saying, I reject Satan & commit my life to Christ, and Christ, along w/the church community saying, welcome.

Eucharist - This one should be obvious to those who are familiar with Catholicism as to how Christ is working through this.  Since Catholics believe in Real Presence, well, this is a way to be with our Lord in a most intimate way.  I don't really look at this as "good works" either, but as I said, just a way to be with my Lord in the most intimate way possible, I think.

Penance - Well, I think the Bible is supportive of confessing sins, repentence, etc. Jesus gave authority to His disciples over unclean spirits (see Mark 6:7), so to me this says that a priest has the authority to forgive sins, through Christ.  As far as actual penance goes, it's not so much a "good work" as it is to help one to repent of whatever sins, resolve to never do it again, feel sorry for sinning, come closer to God, etc.  Every penance I've received so far has usually been to pray (I've never gotten "Say 10 Hail Marys" or something like that, yet anyway), but to really converse with the Lord concerning whatever, or else to think about something to do with God, or something.

Annointing of the sick - I don't see what the difference is between today's priests annointing the sick & when the disciples did (see Mark 6:13).  Good works, maybe you could consider it good works, but remember that in the above referenced scripture, Jesus sent His disciples out  & gave them authority over unclean spirits.  This to me says that priests have the same authority, and that when a priest annoints someone who's sick, he's doing Christ's work, which is, of course, good.

Holy Orders - Being as I'm not a preist, and have only been a church member for about 5.5 years, I don't know too much about this.  I would imagine it's similar to when the disciples formally decided to "leave everything" and follow Jesus.  Maybe Rev. Eric can ellaborate on this.

Matrimony - Being as I'm married, I can say something here.  Not sure how this is "good works", because it's just getting married, and people of all faiths do that.  For us, it's formally commiting our lives to each other, in Christ.  "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body." (Genesis 2:24)

Hope that helped to clear things up, but that's about all I can do, that I can think of.  I can't "prove" matters of faith to you.

Tina

[Ayodhya Nath Bhat]

Thanks Tina for putting your views across.That leaves Rev Eric and Melody to cross their divine swords with me.  
I will express the non-Catholic opinion on the Sacraments as and when time permits and under separate topics.

A N Bhat

[Seeker]

Seeker,

You have cleverly taken only part of select passages to distort the topic and please the papists.Not fair, though some will commend you for your response.Nothing is more true than the fear you are under if you defy the papists.Take a cue from the millions of Catholics who have turned their back on papists of the Catholic Church and decided to follow God.

A.N.,
I apologize if I distorted the topic. From what I read of your post, the point you were trying to make is that sacraments are rituals men made and that we have to choose between the sacraments and Christ.  I wasn't trying to please papists with my response, just present the truth of what Catholicism teaches.  What do you mean by fear for defying the papists?  Are you saying that Catholicism uses fear from man made rituals to rule over members of the Church?

[Rev. Eric]

Wow!  Sacramental Theology.  Now that's a big topic!  It is also a topic that ultimately concerns the mysteries of God and therefore we will never fully understand everything there is to know about them.  But in a forum such as this we can only try our best.

To Seeker and Tina - I think you have done a very good job in this discussion.  I will now attempt to give somewhat of a general overview of Sacramental Theology to try to tie some of these things all together and address Ayodhya's concerns.

To Ayodhya - if the Catholic Church did indeed say that the salvific power of the sacraments stems from them being good works, then your citicisms would be just and well-founded.  But the Catholic Church is not saying that.

So let us now delve into the whole concept that underlines Sacramental Theology.  Here, we must first consider love.  To be more specific, let us talk about true love, and not the kind of love a person means when he says, for example, "I love chocolate."

Based upon human experience and God-given insight, we can see that true love operates according to a set of rules, which are as follows:

The Rules of Love:
1)  True love exists in a relationship, in which both members participate.
2)  A gift of true love must be freely given.
3)  A gift of true love must never be forced on someone.
4)  In a relationship of true love the beloved must be free to accept or reject the lover.  This includes the freedom to accept or reject a gift of love.

The bible tells us that God is love (1Jn 4:.  Therefore, the above listed Rules of Love are also a description of the way God operates, because His very nature is to love.  These rules also describe the kind of relationship we are to have with Him.  As humans, we are called to be in a relationship of true love with God.

Salvation is a gift of love that is freely given, and therefore satisfies these rules.  This salvation is won for us by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.  We are unworthy of it, we do not merit it and we cannot earn it.  As I said, it is a gift freely given out of love (Rule of Love #2).

But the gift of salvation is also not forced upon anyone (Rule of Love #3).  We must participate in the salvation that is offered (Rule of Love 1 & 4).  Consider this statement from St. Paul which, at first glance, sounds quite shocking.

"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, that is, the church..."

How can the afflictions of Christ be lacking, and how can anything that Paul does complete it?  The sacrifice of Christ, of course, is perfect.  So what is lacking?  Paul's participation in this gift of salvation.  A Christian needs to participate in the salvation Jesus won for us in order to complete it.  If our participation is not required, then salvation is not truly a gift of love.

And now we get to the big question.  In what way do we participate in the gift of salvation offered to us by God?  Most Christians (Catholic, Protestant, etc.) would agree that we participate by believing in Jesus (Jn 3:16) and saying "yes" to this gift.  But even here the answer is not so simple.  What does it mean to believe in Jesus and how exactly does one say "yes"?  Because of Rule of Love #1, we need to engage in some type of active participation.  It cannot be a simple passive acceptance or a bunch of words that we spout off.  "Let us love not in word or speech but in deed and in truth" (1Jn 18).

Love requires active participation or it is not a real relationship.  When we look at human relationships, we readily see that there are different ways in order to participate, and some of these ways are deeper/stronger/greater than others.  For example, consider a married couple.  A man professes his love for his bride during the wedding ceremony.  Later he tells his wife "I love you" in a card on St. Valentine's Day.  It is the exact same statement of love, but in the context of a wedding ceremony it is a deeper and greater expression than when it is written in a St. Valentine's Day card.  I'm not saying that such cards are bad; they can be wonderful and beautiful expressions of love.  But they still cannot match the awesome expression of love that is present when a man and a woman devote themselves totally to one another when getting married.

Futhermore, a husband and wife can express the intimacy of their love for one another in a variety of ways.  There can be an intimacy simply sitting together and watching TV.  There can be an even greater intimacy when going out for a romantic dinner.  And, of course, there is the great intimacy found withing sexual union.

In light of all this, I will restate my point:
In a relationship of love, there are a variety of ways for both persons to participate in it, and some ways are deeper and greater than others.
(As a side note, I realize that love exists in relationships between friends, siblings, etc.  I am merely focusing on marital realtionships for the sake of illustration).

Throughout the bible, we are told that all humans, male and female, are called to be the brides of God.  Our relationship with Him takes on marital overtones.  And just as we see that there are different ways to participate in our realtionships with one another, there are different ways to participate in our relationship with God, and not all ways are as great as others.

In terms of our relationship with God, we participate through grace.  The simplest definition of Sanctifying Grace is "a participation in the divine life of God."  Therefore, God provides us with grace in order for us to do this.  We could not do it otherwise; we need His help.

God provides grace to us in a variety of ways.  Grace, like salvation, is a gift freely given, but not forced upon us.  Therefore we open ourselves up to grace by engaging in things like prayer, reading the bible, doing charitable works, etc.  We also open ourselves up to grace by participating in the sacraments.  (Hey, how about that, ol' Rev. Eric is FINALLY talking about sacraments!).  In this case, we are not earning grace, but we are saying "yes" to the grace that God holds out to us.  And this grace helps empower us to be more prayerful, understand the bible better, be more charitable, etc.  So there is a powerful cycle going on.

So there are a variety of ways to participate in our realtionship with God.  But, as with all relationships of love, not every kind of participation is equal.  God has provided us with the seven sacraments as the most powerful ways to participate in our relationship with Him.  For example, reading the bible is good, but receiving Christ in the Eucharist is better (at least from the Catholic understanding of what the Eucharist is).

The seven sacraments were given to us by God as tools by which we can receive the strongest contribution of His grace.  They give us Sanctifying Grace and Sacramental Grace.  Sanctifying Grace allows us to participate in God's divine life.  Sacramental Grace empowers us to live certain aspects of our life better.  For example, one of the Sacramental Graces of Marriage is to help a couple live their martial vows.  One of the Sacramental Graces of Penance is help not to fall again into the sins that were confessed.

In light of all this, the Church says that "...for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation."  (CCC #1129).

Based upon this, Ayodhya, you stated:

Since the sacraments are supposedly necessary for salvation, and since the sacraments are only available through the Catholic church, then obviously, one must be a faithful member of the Catholic church to be saved.

Here I would like to make a few points in reponse:

1)  The key phrase in the statement from the Catechism is "for believers."  This refers to those who have embraced the Catholic Faith and believe in the teachings on the sacraments.  This means that they are accountable for this knowledge.  This does not mean that, say, a life-long Baptist is going to hell because he didn't become a Confirmed Catholic or did not confess his sins in the Catholic Sacrament of Penance.


2)  The Catholic Church had all seven sacraments since the beginning.  The Protestant Reformers rejected most of them, and they disagreed among themselves as to which should are and are not truly sacraments.  So the unavailablilty of some of the sacraments outside of the Catholic Church was the decision of the Reformers, not us.

3)  All mainstream Christian denominations practice water baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  This sacrament of baptism is just as valid as those found in the Catholic Church.  I was baptized as an Episcopalian and did not need a new baptism when I converted to the Catholic Faith.  Furthermore, the Catholic Church presumes that all marriages are valid unless demonstrated otherwise.  So it is incorrect to say that the sacraments are only available through the Catholic Church.  As a side note, some Protestant denominations have a form of Communion and Ordination, but Catholics do not accept the validity of them.  But that is a whole different topic.

4)  The various Orthodox Christians have the exact same seven sacraments and the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of them.  And yes, that includes their Eucharist and Ordination.  So once again, it is a mistake to say that the sacraments are only available through the Catholic Church.

You stated:

One must wonder, under such conditions, if these sacraments are really necessary, or if the Catholic church is using man's traditions to scare people into lifelong obedience to the church, under the threat of eternal damnation.

But based upon what I said about the Orthodox Churches, this concern is not well-founded.  After all, any Catholic is free to run from the "papists", join, say, the Greek Orthodox Church and fully practice a sacamental faith.

Finally I will address your question:

I ask you again, can you accept that everyone outside the Catholic church will burn forever in hell?

No, I can't accept that.  Fortunately the Church does not accept that either.  I will now quote from Lumen Gentium: The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Part 8 (this is one of the Vatican II documents, and is considered an example of the authentic and official teaching of the Catholic Church):

The Church of Christ, "...constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him.  Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside its visible confines."  "Many elements of sanctification and truth" include such things as the bible and baptism, which are found among, say, Protestants and therefore "outside the visible confines" of the Catholic Church.  This is what the Church believes, and this is what was taught to me in seminary.

I think you will have to agree that Church leaders who teach that cannot also be trying to tell people that they have to be Catholic or burn in hell.

I hope all this was helpful.  I know this was a loooooooong post, but there is simply no way to discuss the nuances of Sacramental Theology in just a few brief lines.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

And now let me throw out a question to everyone completely off the topic.  Just who is this guy here:   ?  Some kind of ninja or something?

[Rev. Eric]

Oops!  I forgot to properly reference one of the quotes in my post.     The quote from St. Paul ("Now I rejoice in my sufferings...") is from Col 1:24.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[Seeker]

Yea, anyone know who this is or what he stands for ?  I'm new to this stuff.  I did a Google search and the only stuff that came up with for "ph34r" was Megatokyo comics and a dance club.     looks so cool, I'd like to know when its appropriate to use him.

[Ayodhya Nath Bhat]

Thanks Seeker,Tina and Rev Eric for the considerable efforts and time spent in your responses.

AN Bhat

[Melody]

Dear Ayodhya,

A lot has already been said on this topic, but since you were waiting for Divine Dueling I venture my response:

These seven sacraments are nothing more than a series of good works.

The Latin word 'Sacramentum' means "a sign of the sacred." The seven sacraments are ceremonies that point to what is sacred, significant and important for Christians. They are special occasions for experiencing God's saving presence rather than being 'good works'. (Seeker has already touched upon this a bit, so I will not elaborate.)

Not that this next statement is relevant anymore, because the sacraments are not "a series of good works", but I would like to address it as well:

the Bible states repeatedly that good works will never save anybody

Yes true! But does that mean that since good works do not save, they are therefore un-necessary? How does than gel with Paul's statement to "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling" ?

Here’s some quotations showing the need for good works:

Mt 5:16 “In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.”

1 Pet 1:17 “Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.”

Eph 2: 10 “For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

Eph 4: 7-12 “But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it…to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up”

Must one be a Catholic to be saved? … Though you will never hear a spokesperson for Catholicism admit it, this is exactly what this Catholic doctrine purports

As the Rev. pointed out, No! In fact I’d repeat that no Catholic Doctrine has ever said that!

I was once told, by some Protestants, that because I was Catholic & worshipped the “Whore of Babylon” I would burn in hell. I know that many Protestants think Catholics are going to hell, but I assure you, that it is not the same the other way around.

Catholic friend: do you believe that good works like the sacraments are necessary for salvation? Do you consider it foolishness to believe that salvation can only be obtained through faith in Christ' s work on the cross? If so, God's Word warns that you will perish in hell.

The Catholic Church never ever would make such statements “consider it foolishness to believe that salvation can only be obtained through faith in Christ' s work on the cross”. How cleverly deceptive this is! Jesus’ work on the cross & His Blood is what has saved me, but! I will def. continue to do all the good works I can, in order to build up His church!

When Jesus declared that salvation came only through Him…to suggest that Jesus is wrong is to suggest that the Father is wrong, as well.

This is a classic example how the truth is distorted. Because initial statements are wrong the next statements that follow are wrong too & so on. Now tell me Ayodhya, do you really think the Catholic Church is suggesting Jesus or our Heavenly Father are wrong?? Or that they never read that statement of His? I agree with Seeker that you should be careful of where you get your facts, a lot of books purporting to explain Catholicism are actually just Anti-Catholic books written to turn people away from the Catholic Church.

To end, I’ll address your last quote:

Are you sure, beyond any shadow of a doubt, Roman Catholic friend, that you are of God?

YES!! I believe in Jesus Christ, that His Blood bought me Salvation and that His  resurrection has given me an eternal inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade & that is kept in heaven for me! The fact that I do good works and that I also participate in the sacraments to experience His saving presence even more is not going to change that.

[DavidFilmer]

If Ayodhya plans to cut-and-paste the works of others, the least he could do is attribute it. Ayodhya plagerized this content from the book "Understanding Roman Catholicism," copyright 1995 by Rick Jones, which is posted (with permission and attrition) on Jack Chick's website (Jack Chick is a professional anti-Catholic):

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160%5F08.asp