The Glorify God Community
Welcome,
Guest
. Please
login
or
register
.
May 22, 2012, 09:50:01 AM
1 Hour
1 Day
1 Week
1 Month
Forever
Login with username, password and session length
Search:
Advanced search
Subscribe to feeds from
The Glorify God Community
.
Read more
.
1767
Posts in
376
Topics by
117
Members
Latest Member:
Preshit
The Glorify God Community
Other Forums on Glorify-God
Apologetics
The Mass
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
« previous
next »
Pages:
[
1
]
Author
Topic: The Mass (Read 1269 times)
cfcoelho
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 45
The Mass
«
on:
December 13, 2003, 06:00:06 AM »
Opponents of the Roman Catholic Church say the the Mass is an invention by Papists as there is no such sanction by God in the Holy scriptures and therefore its idolatry.
Logged
“The greatest miracle is not physical but spiritual. It is when a lost soul comes to know the forgiveness from sin and the glorious, saving Grace of God’s Son, Jesus Christ.” – Benny Hinn
[/size][/font]
Melody
Administrator
Sr. Member
Offline
Posts: 364
The Mass
«
Reply #1 on:
December 23, 2003, 11:06:01 PM »
Permit me to answer this with the aid of
Catholic Answers
:
Fundamentalists sometimes say Christ followed the example of Melchizedek at the Last Supper, but that it was a rite that was not to be continued. They undermine their case against the Mass in saying this, since such an admission shows, at least, that the Last Supper was truly sacrificial. The key, though, is that they overlook that Christ said, "Do this in remembrance of me" (Luke 22:19). Clearly, he wasn’t talking about a one-time thing.
"Do this in remembrance of me" can also be translated as "Offer this as my memorial sacrifice." The Greek term for "remembrance" is anamnesis, and every time it occurs in the Protestant Bible (whether in the New Testament or the Greek Old Testament), it occurs in a sacrificial context. For example, it appears in the Greek translation of Numbers 10:10: "On the day of your gladness also, and at your appointed feasts, and at the beginnings of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; they shall serve you for remembrance [anamnesis] before your God: I am the Lord your God." Thus the Eucharist is a remembrance, a memorial offering we present to God to plead the merits of Christ on the cross.
The above is not in direct reference to what you asked, but does prove that the Holy Eucharist is in keeping with scripture. In fact on study of various parts of the Eucharistic celebrations, one will find that it all is in accordance with scriptures, i.e. praying for forgiveness, deliverance, offering peace to one another, asking the Lord to have mercy on us, reading His Word aloud in group, meditating on His Word etc. etc. etc.
«
Last Edit: December 23, 2003, 11:06:17 PM by Melody
»
Logged
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
Philippians 4:13
Glorify-God.com
Ayodhya Nath Bhat
Jr. Member
Offline
Posts: 74
The Mass
«
Reply #2 on:
January 18, 2004, 01:44:47 PM »
The Mass
If the Catechism is to be believed, then each time the Mass is performed, Christ's work on the cross is made present and the work of our redemption is carried out:
"In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."
"When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present. As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."
But the Bible reveals that the work of redemption was a one time act which was completed when Jesus died on the cross:
"...but now once in the end of the world hath he (Jesus) appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 9:26
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:10
When Jesus shed His blood, that one time act purchased eternal redemption for all who would put their faith and trust in Christ alone:
"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he (Jesus) entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 9:12
The Bible specifically states that this sacrifice need not be done daily:
"Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people' s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself." Hebrews 7:27
Yet the Catechism is adamant that:
"Every time this mystery is celebrated, 'the work of our redemption is carried on' ..."
But God's Word is equally adamant that Christ's death was a one time event:
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many..." Hebrews 9:28
"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" Hebrews 10:12
Jesus did all the work necessary to procure man's salvation when He died on the cross. No further work has ever been needed.
Who gets the credit?
For the Catechism to claim that the Catholic church plays a part in the redemptive work of Christ is to steal from the Lord Jesus credit He alone deserves for the work He accomplished at Calvary.
According to God's Word, Christ did it all, once and for all. His death was a divine act, the most wonderful sacrifice ever made. It occurred once, never to be repeated again. Still the Catechism insists:
"The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice."
As lovingly as possible it must be said that this statement is purely sacrilegious. To suggest that a priest performing a religious ritual is a part of the torturous death Jesus endured is nothing short of blasphemy.
To associate the rituals of the Catholic church with Christ's work on the cross is ludicrous. The Catholic church played no part in the work that made redemption possible and it deserves no credit.
Once again, Catholicism tries to force Christ to share His glory with the Catholic church, while the Bible shows that Jesus alone deserves the glory.
Conclusion
Where will you place your trust? In the Word of God... or the traditions and teaching of the Catholic church?
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" 1 Peter 3:18
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Logged
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" Gal. 4:16
Seeker
Global Moderator
Sr. Member
Offline
Posts: 430
The Mass
«
Reply #3 on:
January 25, 2004, 04:21:25 PM »
What is referred to as "breaking of the bread" or "love feasts" in Acts and the Epistles is what Catholics today call the Mass. For greater detail in what early Christians did in their celebrations, see Justin Martyr's First Apology written around 156 AD. What Justin Martyr describes is essentially the Catholic Mass.
Logged
Seeker
[/b][/size]
Ave Maria, Virgo Fidelis
[/font]
-If you continue in my word... you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. Jn 8:31-32
-For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds... Mt 7:8; Lk 11:10
tklein1014
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 113
The Mass
«
Reply #4 on:
January 25, 2004, 06:09:23 PM »
I am confused as to where "Do this in rememberance of me" falls in the fundamentalist belief system. What does this mean to you, if not Mass?
Quote
But the Bible reveals that the work of redemption was a one time act which was completed when Jesus died on the cross:
Just a reminder, also... I believe, and I'm pretty sure that it's basic Christian belief, that God exists outside of time. He looks at everything from Adam & Eve to the present all at once. The way I look at the Mass is that it is the SAME one-time act as about 2000 years ago, but God is outside of time. Sometimes you have to think abstractly to attempt to understand, and it's impossible to understand all of God's ways, since we are mere mortals & He is divine.
This is hard to explain, but I HTH in some way.
Tina
Logged
"Make known to me your ways, Lord, teach me your paths. Guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my savior." - Psalm 25:4-5
Tina's Cross Stitch & other hobbies
Seeker
Global Moderator
Sr. Member
Offline
Posts: 430
The Mass
«
Reply #5 on:
January 26, 2004, 12:13:59 AM »
That was Justin Martyr's First Apology to Emperor Antoninus, Chapers LXV-LXVII. Here it is:
Quote
CHAPTER LXV -- ADMINISTRATION OF THE SACRAMENTS.
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.
CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.
And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.
CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
The Catechism also says,
Quote
In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men. In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.
The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
Also, because we believe in Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist, the Catechism can say,
Quote
The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."
A couple other points. Christ died once and for all, for all humanity, for all time. Christ is not recrucified in the Mass. It is a representation and commemoration. If you believe in the Real Presence, then the Mass makes more sense. It is not an empty ritual done by men.
Christ is the eternal Lamb of God. His sacrifice echoes throughout time, redeeming us all. He redeemed us in his one time death on the cross, but the work of saving all humanity continues throughout time through us His Body. His sacrifice is sufficient for all, but it is effective only for those who believe in Him and love Him. Otherwise, everyone would go to Heaven regardless of whether they believe in Him and love Him or not. Thus, we who are the Body of Christ must spread the Good News that all may believe and be saved. Christ constantly intercedes for us with the Father. He does this in the Mass in a very real way. His Blood is the sign of the new covenant.
I look at the Mass as a Passover meal for the people of the new covenant, His Church. Jesus died to save us all from eternal damnation just as the lamb of the Jews in Egypt saved their firstborn sons from death by the Angel. To consummate the covenant, the Jews ate the lamb that was sacrificed. In a like manner, Catholics eat the Lamb of God that was sacrificed, to consummate the new covenant we have with God through Jesus. So, the Mass is our way of commemorating this saving act of Christ. Paul tells us in 1 Cor 11:26 that "as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes."
So when the Catechism says that "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out.," one must not take it to mean that the ritual of the Mass itself redeems us. Christ Our Savior is the one who is present in a real way during the Mass. It is he who redeems us. The fruits of His sacrifice are applied to us in the Mass through the Eucharist. Christ is not being recrucified, but offers Himself to the Father on our behalf, interceding for us.
I am not a theologian, so if I am saying something incorrect or using misleading language, please someone correct me. Thanks.
Logged
Seeker
[/b][/size]
Ave Maria, Virgo Fidelis
[/font]
-If you continue in my word... you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. Jn 8:31-32
-For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds... Mt 7:8; Lk 11:10
tklein1014
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 113
The Mass
«
Reply #6 on:
January 26, 2004, 12:37:51 AM »
I'm not a theologian either (not even a lifelong Catholic - still consider myself somewhat new after 5.5 years), but what you said sounds right to me, and I think you put it a lot better than I did - I was having trouble finding the "right" words - but I think you're right, belief in the Real Presence definately helps one to understand the Mass better.
Tina
Logged
"Make known to me your ways, Lord, teach me your paths. Guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my savior." - Psalm 25:4-5
Tina's Cross Stitch & other hobbies
DavidFilmer
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 112
The Mass
«
Reply #7 on:
March 20, 2004, 03:13:16 AM »
If Ayodhya plans to cut-and-paste the works of others, the least he could do is attribute it. Ayodhya's Jan 8 reply was plagerized from the book "Understanding Roman Catholicism," copyright 1995 by Rick Jones, which is posted (with permission and attrition) on Jack Chick's website (Jack Chick is a professional anti-Catholic):
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160%5F22.asp
Logged
Quote
In religion, What damned error, but some sober brow Will bless it and approve it with a text
- Bassanio, "The Merchant of Venice" (by William Shakespeare), Act III Scene II
.
Pages:
[
1
]
« previous
next »
Jump to:
Please select a destination:
-----------------------------
About Glorify-God
-----------------------------
=> Latest News & Announcements
=> Forum Rules
=> Suggestions & Feedback
-----------------------------
Our Online Family
-----------------------------
=> Introduction
=> Prayer Requests
=> The Lounge
-----------------------------
Bible Studies
-----------------------------
=> Faith Sharing
=> The Gospels
-----------------------------
Other Forums on Glorify-God
-----------------------------
=> Apologetics
=> Islam & Christianity
=> Church Central
=> The Holy Father in the News
=> Pro-Life
=> Married / Family Life
=> Singles
=> Vocations
=> Misc. Religious Topics
Loading...