Why Don't Christians Venerate Images ?

[Ayodhya Nath Bhat]

Why Don't Christians (NON-CATHOLICS) Venerate Images?

To those who live in the fringe areas of Roman Catholicism the problem of images does not seem as important as it actually is.
Catholic dogma states, "It is permissible and profitable to venerate images of the Saints." These images, and the saints which they represent, are extremely important to the religious life of the people of Italy and of other strongly Roman Catholic countries. This is not only true in the church itself, but it is also true of the less official folk religion. Multitudes who almost never darken the door of a church consider themselves devoted Catholics simply because they are devoted to one or more Catholic images.

Perhaps the one most important fact which distinguishes Bible believing Protestants from their Catholic neighbors is the Protestant insistence that each individual needs to know God personally. In fact, the very reason that Christ came to earth, died for our sins, and rose again was to take away the sins that separate us from God, so that we can know Him in a personal way. The Bible teaches that each individual should have a continual relationship directly with God; not a long distance relationship through an image or the saint that the image represents. One of the major themes in the Bible, from its beginning in Genesis, all the way through to the last book, Revelation, is the Lord's hatred for images. The reason is that they separate man from direct contact with Him by providing something else to pray to and trust in.


Mystery of the Missing Commandment

Most Catholics are very surprised to find that one of the ten commandments prohibits the use of images. I quote the second commandment, not from some Protestant publication, but from the Roman Catholic Bible. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6).

While the Catholic Church regularly teaches the Ten Commandments in its catechisms, it consistently eliminates the commandment quoted above. Nevertheless, it is always found in whatever Bible, whether printed by a Catholic or Protestant printing press. If you have a Bible, why don't you look it up right now?

If you have a Roman Catholic Catechism, why don't you open it up, too. You will not immediately notice that the commandment against making images and bowing before them has been eliminated, because there will still be ten commandments, but if you will read the first three commandments in both the Bible and the Catechism, you will notice that the second commandment, the longest of all, has been left out in the version found in the Catechism. The omission has been hidden by splitting the tenth commandment into two. Here is how the tenth commandment reads in the Catholic Bible: Thou shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male or female servant, nor his ox or ass, nor anything else that belongs to him. (Exodus 20:17). In the Catechism, the part about not coveting your neighbor's wife becomes the ninth, and the rest, servant, etc. are grouped together to form the tenth. These commandments are repeated again in Deuteronomy 5. In this second passage it is not as noticeable that the last commandment has been split in two to camouflage the theft of the second. This is probably why the Catholic church normally uses the review of the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy instead of the original giving of the commandments in Exodus.

The fact that the second commandment is skipped altogether and the omission hidden shows that it is not a matter of the Catholic Church interpreting it differently from the way others do. If they did not understand that it condemns their images why would they have removed this commandment from the catechism and from other popular Catholic teaching?


Photographs

Some, in an attempt to justify praying to images, say that if we had to literally observe the second commandment, we could not even have photographs of our friends and loved ones. The Bible clarifies this point in a passage which specifies what images it is condemning. The prohibited images are those that people venerate or worship: Do not make false gods for yourselves. You shall not erect an idol or a sacred pillar for yourselves, nor shall you set up a stone figure for worship in your land; for I, the Lord, am your God (Leviticus 26:1). Notice that here, as in Exodus, it speaks of a purpose for using the image, for worship, the same Hebrew word is often translated "to bow down." This purpose would not exclude normal photographs of your friends and family. An obvious exception is the practice of praying to photos of dead relatives.


Pagan Images

Others try to avoid God's clear teaching by stating in an authoritative way that He is only referring to pagan images and not their "Christian" images. However, we notice that:

Moses, speaking to the Hebrews, God's chosen people and not to pagans, told them that the Lord had not shown Himself to them when He gave them the ten commandments for a precise reason: So that God's people would not make images of God Himself, You saw no form at all on the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. Be strictly on your guard, therefore, not to degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or a woman… (Deuteronomy 4:15-16, read also verses 17-29). What was prohibited here was not a pagan image, but any images that God's chosen people might have made of God Himself or of men or women.
God praised a king of the Jews for destroying a brass serpent which had previously been made at His express commandment and which His people, after a certain period of time, had begun to venerate. The Bible says of this king, He pleased the Lord, just as his forefather David had done. It was he who removed the high places, shattered the pillars, and cut down the sacred poles. He smashed the bronze serpent called Nehushten which Moses had made, because up to that time the Israelites were burning incense to it (2 Kings 18:3-4).


Images Are Prohibited in the New Testament

Others, in trying to escape the clear teaching of God's word, claim that images were prohibited in the Old Testament, but are now allowed since we are no longer in the times of the Old Testament, but of the New. The fatal weakness of this argument is that it is just not true! The New Testament speaks a great deal about images, and always against them, just as does the Old Testament.

One of the earlier passages to be written in the New Testament is 1 Corinthians 10:14, I am telling you, whom I love, to shun the worship of idols. This theme runs right through the New Testament. We even find it in 1 John 5:21, one of the last books to be written in the New Testament. There we read, My little children, be on your guard against idols.

In between these verses which I have quoted are others, too numerous to list here, but I encourage you to look them up for yourself. You will see that images are prohibited more or less all through the New Testament: 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10:7; 12:2; Acts 7:39-42, 17:16, 29; Romans 1:23; 1 Peter 4:3; Rev. 2:14, 9:20, 21:8, 22:15.


History of Idolatry in the Church

The churches of the first centuries did not use images (with the exception of the symbol of the fish, used like a logo and not an idol). Images first entered the church for ornamental use around the end of the third century. By 400 A.D. they were also being used for instructional purposes, and only in the centuries following were these images regarded as sacred. They were then accepted for veneration by the Roman Church in the council of Nicea in 787 A.D. and in that of Trent in 1562 A.D.

According to Catholic tradition, when a person prays to or worships the image of a saint, he is venerating the saint himself. This explanation, however convincing it may sound, can never justify praying to an image, because God commands us not to. This fact has been understood by some of the most important people in the Catholic church. Under the reform started by Pope John the twenty-third, many of the images were taken out of the churches. Pope John, and several other popes who followed him, also tried to cut down on other idolatrous practices of the church, such as carrying images in processions.

Images Are One of the Major Subjects of the Bible

The fact that so many passages of the Bible deal with images makes it quite obvious that in God's estimation, this is an extremely important issue. I have already pointed out many of the passages in the New Testament. While the subject is too vast in the Old Testament to list all of the passages, the following are among the most important, and reading them will make God's view of images very clear. In addition, their sheer numbers cannot help but impress us with the importance of this subject in God's sight: Exodus 23:24, 34:13; Leviticus 19:4, 26:30; Numbers 33:52; Deuteronomy 5:8-9, 9:12-17, 16:21, 27:15; 1 Kings 14:9, 22-23; Psalms 78:58, 97:7, 106:19-20, 115:4-9, 135:15-18; Isaiah 10:10-11, 30:22, 31:6-7, 42:8-17, 44:8-20, 45:20, 46:6-7; Jeremiah 10:3-16, Ezekiel 16:17-21, 30:13; Daniel 3:1-18; Hosea 11:2, 13:2-4; Micah 1:7, 5:12-13; Habakkuk 2:18-20.

Remember, only God can be in all places at once to hear the thousands of prayers coming from all around the world at the same time. Can you think of a good reason not to pray to Him in the first place?

God loves us. He wants to be our friend and our Father. He asks us to pray directly to Him, to have communion with Him, to honour Him and to praise Him. He feels left out when we venerate someone or something else.  

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[Rev. Eric]

Hello Ayodhya,

I hope you don't mind, but due to time constraints I will not be able to address all your points and concerns in this post.  Therefore, I will take this time to address the 10 Commandments and your issue concerning "The Mystery of the Missing Commandment."  In a later post I will address the whole concept of the veneration of saints and the making of images, assuming, of course, that someone else does not address this beforehand.

Now, let us focus on the "Mystery of the Missing Commandment."  If I understand you correctly, the following are the points you are making:
1)  The 10 Commandments includes the statement, "You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them."
2)  You came across a list of the 10 Commandments in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (or CCC for short) in which this line was not presented.
3)  You conclude that the CCC uses this edited list of the 10 Commandments instead of the full biblical list because it does not want Catholics to know that Christians are not supposed to have images used in prayer.

So let us examine this in detail.

I quote the second commandment, not from some Protestant publication, but from the Roman Catholic Bible. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6).

I agree that you have correctly quoted from the 10 Commandments, although Catholics put this information with the 1st and not the 2nd Commandment.

If you have a Roman Catholic Catechism, why don't you open it up, too. You will not immediately notice that the commandment against making images and bowing before them has been eliminated, because there will still be ten commandments, but if you will read the first three commandments in both the Bible and the Catechism, you will notice that the second commandment, the longest of all, has been left out in the version found in the Catechism.

I followed you advice, and opened up my copy, which is the 2nd Edition of the CCC.  On page 496-497, the 10 Commandments from Exodus is displayed in its entirity, and for comparison the set from Deuteronomy and a set from what is called "A Traditional Catechetical Formula" is displayed next to it.  As you can see, the information concerning graven images is fully described.

Furthermore, starting on page 505 (Paragraph # 2083) is a complete commentary of the 1st Commandment, and once again the information concerning graven images is fully presented from Exodus.  The Catholic stance concerning graven images (in light of this commandment) is presented on pages 516-517 (i.e., Paragraphs 2129-2132).

This is probably why the Catholic church normally uses the review of the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy instead of the original giving of the commandments in Exodus.

As I have now demonstrated, the CCC uses Exodus as its primary text for discussing the 10 Commandments.

Based on my findings, I can see no "Missing Commandment."  And so I must now ask you to give me the exact reference for this list of commandments from the Catechism that skips the information concerning graven images.  

My guess is that you came across a "Traditional Catechetical Formula" that simply states the 1st Commandment as "I am the Lord you God, you shall not have strange gods before me."  The part concerning graven images is deleted from this formula, as are other parts of the Commandments.  A Catechetical Formula needs to be edited because this is designed to be an easy version for children to memorize.  We don't expect them to memorize all the stuff about graven images, all the stuff about how to keep the sabbath holy, all the various goods we are not supposed to covet, etc.  But although the list is edited down to make it easier to remember, all Catholic school children are taught the entire set in class.

The omission has been hidden by splitting the tenth commandment into two. Here is how the tenth commandment reads in the Catholic Bible: Thou shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male or female servant, nor his ox or ass, nor anything else that belongs to him. (Exodus 20:17). In the Catechism, the part about not coveting your neighbor's wife becomes the ninth, and the rest, servant, etc. are grouped together to form the tenth.

Catholics do not split the 10th Commandment in two, because we have traditionally held these to be two separate commandments.  But that is not a really big issue because no one truly knows how to number them.  We all know that these are 10 Commandments, but, in order to conserve space, ancient Hebrew was written without vowels, punctuation or spaces between letters.  The text itself does not tell us how to number them, and even Jews don't know how they were originally intended to be numbered.

The following is a passage from a Jewish work:  The Torah: A Modern Commentary (edited by W. Gunther Plaut, published by the Union of American Hebrew Congregations).  From page 534:

"Further, the division of the commandments themselves is not certain.  There are altogether thirteen sentences in the accepted Jewish versions (seventeen in the Christian) but we cannot conclude from the text itself what comprises the first commandment, what the second, and so forth."

So it is anybody's guess how to divide these commandments up.  Ultimately, it doesn't matter, so long as the entire text is represented.  But my point here is that Catholics did not split a commandment, we simply chose to number the commandment about coveting a neighbor's wife separate from coveting a neighbor's goods.

Once again, I will directly address the issue of venerating saints and the making of images in another post, if someone else does not do this beforehand.

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[Seeker]

Hi Ayodhya,

I won't attempt to steal the good Rev. Erics' thunder.  He explains things so much better than I ever could.  I do want to respond to a couple statements in your post, however.

Multitudes who almost never darken the door of a church consider themselves devoted Catholics simply because they are devoted to one or more Catholic images.

This statement sounds to me like opinion rather than fact.  It may be true for some, but if it is, then those people would be in error.  Either way, this statement is hard to prove, unless one took a poll of Catholics who practice these devotions.  I take this statement as saying that many Catholics believe they can venerate images of Mary and the saints without attending Mass.  First, true veneration does not mean that Catholics are devoted to an image.  They might be devoted to a saint who is depicted in an image.   More importantly, there is no substitute for attending Mass. Any devotion that keeps you away from Mass would be sinful.  True devotion would bring one to want to attend Mass more often.  My guess is the true devotees are the ones you would see attending daily Mass.  I can honestly say that my devotion to the Blessed Virgin is what has inspired me to attend Mass every chance I get (not just on Sundays) and to seek a closer relationship with Jesus.

Perhaps the one most important fact which distinguishes Bible believing Protestants from their Catholic neighbors is the Protestant insistence that each individual needs to know God personally. In fact, the very reason that Christ came to earth, died for our sins, and rose again was to take away the sins that separate us from God, so that we can know Him in a personal way. The Bible teaches that each individual should have a continual relationship directly with God; not a long distance relationship through an image or the saint that the image represents. One of the major themes in the Bible, from its beginning in Genesis, all the way through to the last book, Revelation, is the Lord's hatred for images. The reason is that they separate man from direct contact with Him by providing something else to pray to and trust in.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that each individual needs to know God personally.  That is why the Eucharist is so important to Catholics.  Imagine the intimacy of receiving Christ the whole person; body, soul, and divinity within yourself.  John 6:56 really hits home.  I think that sometimes non-Catholics have this impression that we Catholics feel the need to wrap ourselves in formal prayers and images and saints to make ourselves holy.  The truth of the matter is that we are on a journey to know, love, and serve Christ with all our heart.  Just like you, we seek a very personal relationship with Jesus.  Everything in Catholicism is there to help us be open to the grace of God, moving us closer to Him.  This includes devotion to the saints and Mary, who are there to pray for us, not get in the way.  

That's all for now.  I apologize for the lengthy diatribe filled with my own opinion. Thanks for bearing with me.

[Ayodhya Nath Bhat]

I appreciate your responses Rev Eric and Seeker

 
AN Bhat

[Melody]

Dear Ayodhya,

Let's start with some basics:

From Webster's Dictionary

Ven"er*ate : To regard with reverential respect; to honor with mingled respect and awe; to reverence; to revere; as, we venerate parents and elders.

Wor"ship : To perform acts of homage or adoration; esp., to perform religious service.

Thus,
NOTE 1: Veneration is different from Worship.


The first can be applied to human beings, while the second is reserved only for God. This is emphasized by the Catholic Church:

# 2114 "Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."

The CCC also shows us the difference in veneration of saints & Worship of God:
#2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone"


Thus,
NOTE 2: Catholic Doctrine is Anti-Idolatry & only advocates Worship to the One True Living God.

What do the Ten Commandments say?

Exodus 20: 4-5 " You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God.."

and in

Lev 26:1 "Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God."

If you read the commandments in the true light of God you will understand that God was not against the making of idol, rather the WORSHIP (i.e. bowing down to) of idols.

* You might say that I'm taking two sentences & fusing them into one (wrt Exo 20:4-5) -

Firstly,  that's how we should read the Bible - IN CONTEXT - and not take statements out alone by themselves and try to analyze.
Secondly, Leviticus 26:1, supports that interpretation.
Thirdly, if God didn't want us to make images, why would He Himself annoint man to do that? (it's a gift from God the Father, through the Holy Spirit):

Exodus 31:1-5 "Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship."

We also see God Himself giving man elaborate instructions to make the ark of the covenant with images of cherubs:

Exodus 25:18-20 "And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover."

If you could take the "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above" without the "You shall not bow down to them or worship them", then it would be that God contradicted what He Himself said just in 5 chapters before that in the same book!

Thus,
NOTE 3: The Ten Commandments state we should not make any idol to Worship it.

Catholic dogma states, "It is permissible and profitable to venerate images of the Saints."

Given the definition of veneration, (i.e. it's different from worship), what is wrong with the veneration of the saints? It's like patting someone on the back for a good job done. If the saints didn't deserve that, than who? Also it gives us role models to follow. True, we have tons of role models in the Bible & you may say that we need only follow Jesus.. but even St. Paul told us to "Imitate me as I imitate Christ".

While it is definitely not insisted upon, the imitating of those who loved & followed Christ would definitely be profitable to us.

Thus,
NOTE 4: Veneration (& not worship) of the saints is indeed profitable.

Wrt the Missing Commandment, the Rev. has already explained, so I'll simply put:

NOTE 5: There is no Missing Commandment in Catholic Doctrine (& therefore no mystery!).

Images Are One of the Major Subjects of the Bible

I think rather, Idolatry, the worship of those images, is the one of the Major subjects & as we have seen, the Catholic Church is against Idolatry.

Now some Personal Viewpoints:

(01) I have a lot of images/pictures Jesus etc. around me. While I don't pray TO the image, the presence of the image definitely help me pray by creating an ambience of prayer, rather than if I had no image or worse a picture say of a Rock Star or such.

(02) You talked about Photographs. What do they do? Remind us of the person in the pic/event in the pic. While we don't remember the Photograph we remember what they are portraying to us. That's the same thing images do. Often I sit in my dining room where we have an image of the last supper & I think of Jesus breaking bread & how He too was human like us & so many other things. It's wonderful to have reminders of God through the use of images.

(03) I also love having the Crucifix (cross with image of Jesus) around as it shows me but a glimpse of what my Jesus went through to save me. I have this enormous picture just of a close up of His crucified head with all the blood & gore & His loving eyes. A protestant once told me "It's Wrong for you to have these images here". He himself had a huge cross in his home. I asked him why having a cross made of wood does not constitute idolatry while having a crucifix does - he hasn't answered me yet - perhaps you could?

(04) I've also noticed many protestant churches/ministries having their own symbols/images etc. Many of these represent the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove/fire or such. Wouldn't that be idolatry by your def. as well? i.e. they were man made (via the computer/camera or whatever).

Now finally to a rather disturbing fact:

While Catholic Doctrine is 100% against idolatry (as we've already seen), it is also true that the Church has indulged in idolatry in the past. While I'm not condoning the sin, it is also true that the Church has repented of all it's past sins (& yes, I agree there were many) & washed itself in the Blood of Jesus, making it now as White as Snow.

There are however, some who do practice some form of idolatry (knowingly or not) and that is NOT acceptable according to Church Doctrine. I myself am Deeply pained when this sort of behavior is not pulled up & rooted out. There are nevertheless, a lot of priests who stand up for the truth & do this come-what-may. We should as a body pray that all these annointed servants of God have the Grace to weed out idolatry completely.

I hope what I've written will enable you to see the difference between having images & committing idolatry and convince you that the Catholic Church is in no way advocating or condoning this grave sin.

Blessings,

Melody

[tklein1014]

I have a lot of images/pictures Jesus etc. around me. While I don't pray TO the image, the presence of the image definitely help me pray by creating an ambience of prayer,

You all pretty much covered everything that I can think of, but I just wanted to focus on this one point here, because I also find that having prayerful images around helps me to focus my prayers as well, and to kind of be a constant reminder of God's presence, love, and protection.

Tina

[Rev. Eric]

I think this has been an excellent discussion.  Ayodhya has raised some very important questions and I commend Seeker, Melody and Tina for their insights and information.  In this post I will try to address some items that have not fully been hashed out yet.

To Ayodhya:
Let me first address the title of your post:  
"Why Don't Christians (NON-CATHOLICS) Venerate Images?"
We do not venerate the image but the person the image represents.  If the image represents God then the honor given is "latria" (from Greek) - the honor that a creature justly owes his Creator, and only God is to receive it.  In modern language, this kind of honor is called "worship" and "adoration."  

If the image represents a creature such as a saint or angel, the honor given is simply the type that creatures may give to one another (such as the honor we are commanded to give our parents).  This honor is called "dulia" which is below latria.  Mary, deserving a special kind of honor among creatures, is given "hyper-dulia" (i.e., "above dulia", but still below latria).

In light of this, a better title for your post would have been:
"Why Don't Christians (NON-CATHOLICS) Use Images?"
But we could still "tweak" this title a bit more.  The implication is that only Catholics use images in prayer.  But there are approximately 250,000,000 Christians of the various Orthodox faiths who heavily use blessed icons.  Furthermore, Protestant members of the Anglican Communion (i.e., Episcopalians, Church of England, etc.) readily use crucifixes and statues of saints.  And we also know that there are large numbers of Protestants who use crosses of various types.

So in light of everything, I humbly propose that a better title of your post would be:  "Why Don't Certain Protestants Use Images?"

Now, let us move on.

The Bible teaches that each individual should have a continual relationship directly with God; not a long distance relationship through an image or the saint that the image represents.

Remember, only God can be in all places at once to hear the thousands of prayers coming from all around the world at the same time.

1)  Christians are one in the body of Christ, as Paul tells us.  That means that the saints in heaven are perfectly united with Christ.  Therefore, a relationship with Christ experienced through a saint is not "long-distance."

2)  Although it is not "long-distance", one could argue that using saints in one's spirituality is an "indirect" approach to God.  But all Christians everywhere experience God in indirect ways (and hopefully direct ways as well).  The only people who discover God in a direct way are certain rare visionaries.  For the rest of us, we discover God through Christians and/or through the writings of those people who compiled the bible.  These are indirect ways.  Futhermore, even the visionaries I mentioned had to include indirect ways of experiencing God.  For example, Paul had a direct encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, but Jesus then sent him to the members of His Church to teach him about the faith.

3)  As a Catholic, I pray directly to God and I pray to saints.  When praying to saints, I do the following:
a)  I honor the power of Christ that worked so strongly in their lives.  So by honoring the saints, I honor Christ.
b )  I honor the saint himself or herself, because he/she said "yes" to Christ in a very real and powerful way.
c)  I recognize that the saint led a life of heroic virtue and, therefore, may be recognized as a Christian role model.
d)  I ask the saint to pray to God on my behalf, just as a Protestant would aks his local pastor.  The bible tells us to pray for one another, and that the prayers of the righteous are powerful in their effects (James 5:16).  In that case, asking the saints to pray for me is the logical thing to do, for they are more righteous than anyone here on earth.  And I know that I can communicate with the saints because we are one in the body of Christ, and Christ is the vine and we are the branches.  The "vine" of Christ joins the Christians in heaven with Christians on earth.  Prayer is not an act of worship in and of itself, but a supernatural telephone that allows us to communicate with those in heaven.  Christ empowers them to hear our prayers.  Plus, there is no time in heaven, so a saint cannot get bombarded with more messages than he can handle.  He has all eternity to hear them and act upon them.
e)  In Revelation, John saw saints and angels mediating prayers between people on earth and God in heaven (Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4).
f)  Remember that even Jesus openly spoke to righteous people who were no longer on this earth.  At His Transfiguration He spoke to Moses and Elijah, and He did this in front of some of the apostles.


The big question is, why bother asking the saints to pray for me?  Why not ask God directly?  (Of course, this implies that I will not ask anyone here on earth to pray for me either.)  The idea is to pray to God and to ask the saints to pray for us as well.  Why?  Because we are supposed to be in a loving realtionship with one another, and do acts of loving charity for one another.  When another Christian agrees to pray for me, it is an act of loving charity, and it strengthens the communal bond that we are all supposed to share.  Praying to God while purposefully ignoring His children in heaven can be a rejection of this communal bond.  Furthermore, it shows a lack of understanding of what it means to be one in the body of Christ.  Heaven is like a big dinner party and Jesus is the Host.  He wants us to mingle and interact with one another, because we are supposed to be in a loving Christian relationship with one another.  Because we are one in the body of Christ, we can start this "mingling" here on earth.

Also, because the saints in heaven are more righteous than me, I believe that God will respond more favorably to my prayers if I enlist the aid of the saints.  And I state that because of James 5:16.  So while I send my prayers to God directly, I also invite lots of saints to join me.

Images Are Prohibited in the New Testament

Others, in trying to escape the clear teaching of God's word, claim that images were prohibited in the Old Testament, but are now allowed since we are no longer in the times of the Old Testament, but of the New. The fatal weakness of this argument is that it is just not true! The New Testament speaks a great deal about images, and always against them, just as does the Old Testament.

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament only condemn images that are worshiped as idols.  Melody has pointed out that God commanded the Hebrews to create images of cherubim for the Ark of the Covenant.  To this I could add that statues of lions adorned the Temple of Solomon.

God praised a king of the Jews for destroying a brass serpent which had previously been made at His express commandment and which His people, after a certain period of time, had begun to venerate.

More specifically, they began to worship it as an idol.  This was the brass serpent (or bronze serpent, depending on the translation) of Numbers 21:8-9.  The creation of the image was not a problem, for it was ordained by God.  The problem did not surface until much later when Hebrews were treating it as an idol (and King Hezekiah ordered in to be destroyed along with the pillars that were used in pagan worship - 2Kings 8:4).

Some, in an attempt to justify praying to images, say that if we had to literally observe the second commandment, we could not even have photographs of our friends and loved ones. The Bible clarifies this point in a passage which specifies what images it is condemning. The prohibited images are those that people venerate or worship: Do not make false gods for yourselves... This purpose would not exclude normal photographs of your friends and family. An obvious exception is the practice of praying to photos of dead relatives.

And what if I decide to kiss the photograph of my dead mother?  Does this mean that I am expressing love for Kodak Paper?  No, it means that I am expressing love for my mother through a material image of her.  The same concept is at work when I use the image of a saint.

And there are some people who display photographs of their loved ones in next to their tombs.  They go there to talk to these deceased relatives while gazing at the image.  Is this wrong?  Do these people commit idolatry?  No, because we talk to our loved ones in life, and when they die we do not believe that death has the last word.  Christ has conquered death, and through him we are still connected to the Christians who have gone on before us.  The same idea is at work when Catholics use images.

Others, in trying to escape the clear teaching of God's word, claim that images were prohibited in the Old Testament, but are now allowed since we are no longer in the times of the Old Testament, but of the New. The fatal weakness of this argument is that it is just not true! The New Testament speaks a great deal about images, and always against them, just as does the Old Testament.

The Jews did not depict God in artwork because He is the invisible God, and carved images could be used for idolatrous practices.  But the Jews also understand that "This is no prohibition of the plastic arts as such, only their misuse." (The Torah: A Modern Commentary, W. Gunther Plaut [ed.], Union of American Hebrew Congregations, New York, 1981; page 542.)  Christ, however, gives us a visible image of the invisible God, and therefore an image we can represent in artwork.

The churches of the first centuries did not use images (with the exception of the symbol of the fish, used like a logo and not an idol). Images first entered the church for ornamental use around the end of the third century. By 400 A.D. they were also being used for instructional purposes, and only in the centuries following were these images regarded as sacred.

Actually, the Orthodox Christians have always claimed that St. Luke painted the first icon, so as far as the Orthodox are concerned, sacred images have been around since day one.  There is also the idea that Jesus himself has given us supernatural images of Himself (such as in the story of Veronica and the image on the Shroud of Turin).

But whether or not any of this is true is beside the point.  It does not matter to Catholics whether or not first Century Christians used sacred images.  What is important is that the use of these images was officially sanctioned in eccumenical councils.  In other words, from a Catholic view point, the Holy Spirit guided these councils to give the official divine "OK" to the making and use of images in non-idolatrous ways (i.e., the ways prescribed by the Church).  Therefore, as far as we are concerned, God says that it is ok to use them in the way that the Church teaches.  Even if no Christian ever used such images for the first 300 years of Christianity, we would still see absolutely nothing wrong with their use today.

Under the reform started by Pope John the twenty-third, many of the images were taken out of the churches. Pope John, and several other popes who followed him, also tried to cut down on other idolatrous practices of the church, such as carrying images in processions.

This is not really what happened.  You are referring to the liturgical reforms of Vatican II.  The decision to cut down on images used in liturgy had nothing to do with idolatry, or any other moral issue.  Rather, the idea was to cut down on clutter.  More specifically, the issue addressed was the "multiplicity of images", which means having several different images depicting the same person instead of simply having one or two.  Furthermore, this reform only effected Latin Rite Catholics.  Byzantine Rite Catholics (i.e., Orthodox Christians who acknowledge the authority of the pope) are still free to wallpaper their churches with icons.

Ok, Ayodhya, I think that each of your concerns in this matter have been addressed by either me or one of the other posters.  If we missed something then please let us know.

I will end with asking you to consider something concerning the whole issue of venerating saints.  Most Christians (Catholic, Protestant, etc.) support the statements of the Apostles' Creed.  This creed expresses the Christian Faith.  This is not a dead faith, but a living faith.  It is a living faith because it comes to us from the Eternal Living God and we embrace it and live it in our daily lives.

The Apostles' Creed includes the statement "I believe in the communion of saints."  "Communion" means that some sort of communication is going on.  So even if a particular Christian does not approve of the Catholic position on saints, he must still ask himself: "What do I mean when I say that I believe in the communion of saints, and how do I live that part of my faith?"

God bless,
-Rev. Eric

[DavidFilmer]

If Ayodhya plans to cut-and-paste the works of others, the least he could do is attribute it. Ayodhya plagerized this content from the book "Answers to my Catholic Friends," copyright 1996 by Thomas F. Heinze, which is posted (with permission and attrition) on Jack Chick's website (Jack Chick is a professional anti-Catholic):

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/218/218%5F04.asp